DEFIANCE game and TV show - sink or swim?

[Overmind One]

I think we all agree about the currency issue here. And we seem to all agree that it's just one flaw from a whole list of flaws that can't be overlooked when it comes to suspending our disbelief.

I could overlook it if it wasnt used as a plot device in so many of the 8 episodes they have already aired. Datak has prestige because he is rich (with money used in Defiance). He takes a "cut" of this on a regular basis too. And we have trunkfuls of it being used to purchase weapons, have it being locked in safes and carried in stagecoaches...er...land coaches . Like in SGU, they were using a plot device used ONCE to "okay" effect in SG-1 which was the communications stones. It worked once, and thats it. In SGU they made it into an integral part of the show and it became lame. Money seems to be a central element of Defiance, with people's lives centered around making it, hoarding it, or spending it. THAT is why I focus on it, because it should not be in use at all. No form of it. A post-apocalyptic world would not need any non-barter currency. Its governments would be localized like they show in Defiance. But they TALK ABOUT the other places and the Earth Alliance, but there does not seem to be any evidence of them in the game or the show.


Im sick of seeing the dumb town, that damned unfinished arch and the Dodge Charger. Show us another town.

 

[Gatefan1976]

I could overlook it if it wasnt used as a plot device in so many of the 8 episodes they have already aired.

Is it though? or do you just notice it more yourself?

Datak has prestige because he is rich (with money used in Defiance). He takes a "cut" of this on a regular basis too.

Is that "money" being "front and centre" or just a way for the audience to understand why he has POWER? He has also been shown to employ "standover men" to maintain his position as well.

And we have trunkfuls of it being used to purchase weapons, have it being locked in safes and carried in stagecoaches...er...land coaches .

Fair call.

Like in SGU, they were using a plot device used ONCE to "okay" effect in SG-1 which was the communications stones. It worked once, and thats it. In SGU they made it into an integral part of the show and it became lame.

Indeed, they took a "reasonable idea" and turned it into a crutch to "expand their storytelling universe" and SGU simply did not need it. A truly ANCIENT ship billions of light-years from home with a crew of "misfits" exploring the outer reaches of the universe, Hell, there is ENOUGH there in 1 damn sentence to fuel a good series, but no, we need to get the other "demo's" with half assed trips to Earth (which just assassinates the notion of being alone) to fuel other inane storylines to get in further disperate viewer groups. ERGH!!!

Money seems to be a central element of Defiance, with people's lives centered around making it, hoarding it, or spending it. THAT is why I focus on it, because it should not be in use at all. No form of it.

Is it really though? It's assumed a lot in the background I'll give you that, but the times they actually *use* money are pretty few and far between.

A post-apocalyptic world would not need any non-barter currency.

That's why I don't think the world is as "post apocalyptic" as you and Bluce seem to want it to be. The black death was a real "Apocalyptic Event", yet instead of reverting us back centuries, it ushered in the renaissance.

Its governments would be localized like they show in Defiance. But they TALK ABOUT the other places and the Earth Alliance, but there does not seem to be any evidence of them in the game or the show.

Which is a huge GLARING UGLY STUPID FAILURE!!

Im sick of seeing the dumb town, that damned unfinished arch and the Dodge Charger. Show us another town.

Next season is supposed to be in another town, lets see them reuse their own stupid schtakko in S2 as well, YAY!!!!

 

[Overmind One]

Is it though? or do you just notice it more yourself?


Is that "money" being "front and centre" or just a way for the audience to understand why he has POWER? He has also been shown to employ "standover men" to maintain his position as well.

Its a dumb plot device dumbed down for people who equate money with power. Money does not equal power. To many people, physical strength or strength of character is power. In Defiance, I see having advanced tech as being power. See, we dont just have money being used, but we have an alien using and hoarding it. This is in direct conflict with these aliens being advanced. The concept of money and monetary exchange is primitive and baseless, whereas barter trade and exchange is not.

Fair call.

Indeed, they took a "reasonable idea" and turned it into a crutch to "expand their storytelling universe" and SGU simply did not need it. A truly ANCIENT ship billions of light-years from home with a crew of "misfits" exploring the outer reaches of the universe, Hell, there is ENOUGH there in 1 damn sentence to fuel a good series, but no, we need to get the other "demo's" with half assed trips to Earth (which just assassinates the notion of being alone) to fuel other inane storylines to get in further disperate viewer groups. ERGH!!!

Trek, Farscape and Firefly and B5 never needed money. Star Wars did. The concept of progress and advancement moves away from money. This town of Defiance is more like a wild west town of the 1800s.

Is it really though? It's assumed a lot in the background I'll give you that, but the times they actually *use* money are pretty few and far between.

That's why I don't think the world is as "post apocalyptic" as you and Bluce seem to want it to be. The black death was a real "Apocalyptic Event", yet instead of reverting us back centuries, it ushered in the renaissance.

Dude, the entire planet has been changed by terraforming. There is a belt of huge chunks of debris circling the earth, satellites are gone, the internet is gone, governments are gone, entire nations and places of historical value are gone. That is about as bad as it gets. Its even worse than nuclear war.

Which is a huge GLARING UGLY STUPID FAILURE!!

Next season is supposed to be in another town, lets see them reuse their own stupid schtakko in S2 as well, YAY!!!!

They really need to show something other than Defiance...another town, far far away...show us the Space Needle now sticking out of a lake. Show us houses built on the Golden Gate Bridge which now sits spanning a forest. Show us what the Statue of Liberty looks like in this world.

 

[Joelist]

Hi!

GF thanks for noting that all these issues we bring up really go back to what I called them out on back in the premiere - zero exposition of the backstory.

It's one thing to speak of the Earth Republic (capital New York City) - instead of just talking about it actually TAKE US THERE! An episode where the Mayor visits the Earth Republic capitol could fill in loads of needed context. Have something happen where Datak Tarr has to briefly go to the Votan Collective - same reasons. With no context the plots have a hard time making sense.

 

[Bluce Ree]

Dude, the entire planet has been changed by terraforming. There is a belt of huge chunks of debris circling the earth, satellites are gone, the internet is gone, governments are gone, entire nations and places of historical value are gone. That is about as bad as it gets. Its even worse than nuclear war.

Seriously. Any more apocalyptic would require the Moon smashing into the Earth. Why is that so hard to grasp?

 

[Gatefan1976]

Its a dumb plot device dumbed down for people who equate money with power. Money does not equal power. To many people, physical strength or strength of character is power.

Dial back your brain watts a bit bro, this is NOT a show for "smart people", it's the "dick and fart jokes" of the scifi spectrum. Hell, even asking a lot of peeps to go beyond "I am rich so I can buy what I want" will not register as power. It's not as blatant as say W13 or Eureka in that regard, but that's where it is.

In Defiance, I see having advanced tech as being power. See, we dont just have money being used, but we have an alien using and hoarding it.

Hold hard here brother, there is NO evidence that Datak "hordes" money. EVERYTHING he does is to advance his power, and his wife helps him in that regard.

This is in direct conflict with these aliens being advanced. The concept of money and monetary exchange is primitive and baseless, whereas barter trade and exchange is not.

I'm sorry, but you have gone all "Trekkie" on me here and as MUCH as I LOVE the trekkian ideal, there is no basis to think it would work in the *now* where Defiance is set.

Trek, Farscape and Firefly and B5 never needed money.

BULLSHIT!!!
They ALL have money, they are just not made features of the show. First Contact, ARGUABLY the BEST TNG movie has money as a backbone of explaining just why they are different.
B5 has Money to explain why a "neutral trade station" should exist and MANY of the stories have to deal with the "Have's" and "Have not's" and the criminal organizations that breed in such conditions. Farscape and Firefly use it when they *need* to, but it is not made a major feature.

Star Wars did. The concept of progress and advancement moves away from money. This town of Defiance is more like a wild west town of the 1800s.

Yes, which is why it gets compared to Firefly.

Dude, the entire planet has been changed by terraforming. There is a belt of huge chunks of debris circling the earth, satellites are gone, the internet is gone, governments are gone, entire nations and places of historical value are gone. That is about as bad as it gets. Its even worse than nuclear war.

????????????
I disagree, a full scale nuke war would leave nothing behind, the arkfalls and terraforming have shown *in show* to leave enormous amounts of stuff behind. The world of defiance is a bullet ridden mess, not the smoking wasteland of full scale nuclear devestation.

They really need to show something other than Defiance...another town, far far away...show us the Space Needle now sticking out of a lake. Show us houses built on the Golden Gate Bridge which now sits spanning a forest. Show us what the Statue of Liberty looks like in this world.

Yes they do, if only in an overall panoramic sweep, but that SHOULD have been done in the pilot, now it is too late.

 

[Joelist]

BTW, money is not only used in Firefly it plays a key role in several episodes. Same in Farscape. Even Trek started having money appear in the TNG and later shows (gold pressed latinum for example is a type of money).

As to the backstory, what we know from the wikis (which we should NOT have to look up) indicates that the wars ended 16 ywars ago and that the devastation is heavy but not uniform. For example, the East Coast comes off as being in better shape than the Central and West - Earth Republic is centered in the East. Again this all goes back to lack of exposition of the backstory. We should not be having to go online to work out what is going on - it should be told to us.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Seriously. Any more apocalyptic would require the Moon smashing into the Earth. Why is that so hard to grasp?

See my answer to OM

 

[Joelist]

I have a suggestion.

Let's all get together on a set day/time and rewatch the pilot of Firefly. Contrast it to Defiance. The differences are pretty stark.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Hi!

GF thanks for noting that all these issues we bring up really go back to what I called them out on back in the premiere - zero exposition of the backstory.

Not at all, you were quite right, but the rabbling of other voices who tend to argue harder (like, ME for example ) sorta drowned that out.

It's one thing to speak of the Earth Republic (capital New York City) - instead of just talking about it actually TAKE US THERE! An episode where the Mayor visits the Earth Republic capitol could fill in loads of needed context. Have something happen where Datak Tarr has to briefly go to the Votan Collective - same reasons. With no context the plots have a hard time making sense.

And with Defiance being essentially a "re-skinned" crime drama, it would actually WORK as well.
ARRRGHHHH!!!

 

[shavedape]

So if the ER wants to take over Defiance why are they giving them currency to use? Better to break their financial back and then swoop in instead of allowing them to keep resisting assimilation into the larger organism.

And, like I said earlier, if the ER is giving currency to Defiance in order to woo it into joining the ER why hasn't that been explained? I can understand that as being an insidious, albeit effective, tool to slowly tear down any resistance to assimilation.

But, again, I'm filling in the blanks and doing the leg work that the writers should have done in the first place. The producers of this turd need to send me a paycheck.

 

[Joelist]

So if the ER wants to take over Defiance why are they giving them currency to use? Better to break their financial back and then swoop in instead of allowing them to keep resisting assimilation into the larger organism.

And, like I said earlier, if the ER is giving currency to Defiance in order to woo it into joining the ER why hasn't that been explained? I can understand that as being an insidious, albeit effective, tool to slowly tear down any resistance to assimilation.

But, again, I'm filling in the blanks and doing the leg work that the writers should have done in the first place. The producers of this turd need to send me a paycheck.

That's the point Shaved. For all we know they are doing that except there is no backstory given at all. On the other hand, scrip may simply be the currency in general use because it is backed by valuable minerals/tech/gold/dogpoop from the Earth Republic and everyone knows they can redeem it with ER if desired so they use it - again however zero backstory explanation so it's all net research and guesswork.

 

[shavedape]

That's the point Shaved. For all we know they are doing that except there is no backstory given at all. On the other hand, scrip may simply be the currency in general use because it is backed by valuable minerals/tech/gold/dogpoop from the Earth Republic and everyone knows they can redeem it with ER if desired so they use it - again however zero backstory explanation so it's all net research and guesswork.

We should invoice the DEFIANCE production company for the time we've had to spend trying to figure this thing out. I'd love to see how they respond, if they do at all (cowardly hacks that they are). We could publish the whole thing on our front page. You never know, we might get some web notoriety out of it for spotlighting the sad state of scifi writing today.

 

[Gatefan1976]

We should invoice the DEFIANCE production company for the time we've had to spend trying to figure this thing out. I'd love to see how they respond, if they do at all (cowardly hacks that they are). We could publish the whole thing on our front page. You never know, we might get some web notoriety out of it for spotlighting the sad state of scifi writing today.

Which leads me back to my head explosion, WHY is someone who made farscape now making this disjointed trash?
--- merged: Jun 13, 2013 at 11:12 PM ---
Shaved and Joe
We DO have a reason WHY E.R. is interested in Defiance, the mines and the artefact found in the mines, the real problem with it is, it has no freaking context
--- merged: Jun 13, 2013 at 11:20 PM ---

I have a suggestion.

Let's all get together on a set day/time and rewatch the pilot of Firefly. Contrast it to Defiance. The differences are pretty stark.

I could rewatch Firefly, but I don't have access to Defiance Ep 1 in any way I would use now. I will try via memory, but I will be the first to admit my memory can be "spotty" at best sometimes.

 

[Overmind One]

Dial back your brain watts a bit bro, this is NOT a show for "smart people", it's the "dick and fart jokes" of the scifi spectrum. Hell, even asking a lot of peeps to go beyond "I am rich so I can buy what I want" will not register as power. It's not as blatant as say W13 or Eureka in that regard, but that's where it is.

Agreed. Its not for thinking people...but it is also not for science fiction fans and that is who it is pitching itself towards. That is where I take issue with it. I stop listening when somebosy asks me "Hey, have you seen that new science fiction series called Defiance?!?" It is NOT science fiction no matter how you dress it up. It is a soap opera.

Hold hard here brother, there is NO evidence that Datak "hordes" money. EVERYTHING he does is to advance his power, and his wife helps him in that regard.

Money motivates him. He collects it and lives his lifestyle because of it. He employs henchmen to collect his "cut" if he were in gangland Chicago, he would be a mob boss. All of these things, including gangster is based in the acquisition of money. How does he become this "businessman" if he comes from an advanced alien culture capable of building interstellar arks with high tech? Who PAID FOR those arks? (nobody, because no single individual or company could undertake such a project). Its dumb. If Datak was a human it might make a little bit of sense...a guy who is

I'm sorry, but you have gone all "Trekkie" on me here and as MUCH as I LOVE the trekkian ideal, there is no basis to think it would work in the *now* where Defiance is set.

Everything works in a magical world like Defiance. When you do not have to follow the rules of science and follow logical principles, you can pretty much do anything you want. This is the defining demarcation between Star Wars and Star Trek. In Defiance, you can take a magical feat and claim it is made possible by alien tech without ever having to explain it. The *now* where Defiance is set is even illogical. Is there a lake nearby? A coastline? Is the ground particularly fertile? In other words, WHY Defiance (old St Louis)?

BULLSHIT!!!
They ALL have money, they are just not made features of the show. First Contact, ARGUABLY the BEST TNG movie has money as a backbone of explaining just why they are different.
B5 has Money to explain why a "neutral trade station" should exist and MANY of the stories have to deal with the "Have's" and "Have not's" and the criminal organizations that breed in such conditions. Farscape and Firefly use it when they *need* to, but it is not made a major feature.

Haves and have nots have nothing to do with money unless you are talking about a culture that uses it. Trade does not equal the exchange of money. You cant have such people when trade is based in barter, unless an individual or individuals come to control a limited resource like food or water. Back to defending the show again?......

Yes, which is why it gets compared to Firefly.


????????????
I disagree, a full scale nuke war would leave nothing behind, the arkfalls and terraforming have shown *in show* to leave enormous amounts of stuff behind. The world of defiance is a bullet ridden mess, not the smoking wasteland of full scale nuclear devestation.

A nuclear war would not destroy the borders of nations (which do not exist anyway in reality), it would not change the topography of the landscape and turn Beverly Hills into a cave or an ocean. It would not change Australia into southern Asia. The terraforming in Defiance has changed EVERYTHING, including animals and plants. No nuclear war could do that. The world of Defiance is a huge deus ex machina allowing the writers to use any locale and claim it is downtown Los Angeles after terraforming. I will waste no time trying to find ways to explain away truly stupid writing and premise for this show. Several shows I liked got cancelled like "V" and Primeval: New World. But the flaws in the show were reflected in poor ratings and I had to face the fact that although I was willing to give much of it a pass, most were not. I want to like the show, but there is just nothing to like about it to me except seeing the stupidity they have cobbled together. I laughed when I saw the convertible with a freshener tree hanging from the rearview tooling around in Defiance. WHY they were in the car didn't really matter to me. That is how I watch this show.

Yes they do, if only in an overall panoramic sweep, but that SHOULD have been done in the pilot, now it is too late.

Bolded describes the whole show for me.
--- merged: Jun 13, 2013 at 11:24 PM ---

Which leads me back to my head explosion, WHY is someone who made farscape now making this disjointed trash?
--- merged: Jun 13, 2013 at 11:12 PM ---
Shaved and Joe
We DO have a reason WHY E.R. is interested in Defiance, the mines and the artefact found in the mines, the real problem with it is, it has no freaking context
--- merged: Jun 13, 2013 at 11:20 PM ---


I could rewatch Firefly, but I don't have access to Defiance Ep 1 in any way I would use now. I will try via memory, but I will be the first to admit my memory can be "spotty" at best sometimes.

Syfy Rewind! You can watch all new episodes the day after it is aired.

http://www.syfy.com/rewind/

 

[Overmind One]

O GOOD GRIEF. Im watching Episode 8 now with Brian J Smith in it....they have paparazzi taking pictures of him....with FILM CAMERAS.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Agreed. Its not for thinking people...but it is also not for science fiction fans and that is who it is pitching itself towards. That is where I take issue with it. I stop listening when somebosy asks me "Hey, have you seen that new science fiction series called Defiance?!?" It is NOT science fiction no matter how you dress it up. It is a soap opera.

See me disagree??
Nope, me neither

Money motivates him. He collects it and lives his lifestyle because ofit.

Ahhhh
No it does not, advancing his position motivates him, In fact IIRC, in the pilot someone came up to him in the street to pay his "cut" and Datak was offended by the public acknowledgement of him being a "mafia boss". For him it is ALL about perception. That's *not* money bro.

He employs henchmen to collect his "cut" if he were in gangland Chicago, he would be a mob boss. All of these things, including gangster is based in the acquisition of money.

Gangsters don't "flash their cash" they want to be seen as "legitimate businessmen" Oh sure they will use the *benefits* of having cash, but that is not their motivation.

How does he become this "businessman" if he comes from an advanced alien culture capable of building interstellar arks with high tech? Who PAID FOR those arks? (nobody, because no single individual or company could undertake such a project). Its dumb. If Datak was a human it might make a little bit of sense...a guy who is

Dude, you are assuming that all of the people on the arks are "high minded nobles" and that's a pretty silly trap to fall into. You are a VOY fan, HOW THE HELL did Sutter even get considered for not only Starfleet, but then the supposedly higher minded Marquis?? Dude was a freaking psychotic murderer!!! You pack up a civilization, you take the good and the bad, and from all info we have Datak was a low ranking douche on the arks.

Everything works in a magical world like Defiance. When you do not have to follow the rules of science and follow logical principles, you can pretty much do anything you want. This is the defining demarcation between Star Wars and Star Trek.

How much of TOS "science" was considered viable when it *first* aired dude? Trek does indeed try to explain it's "magic" far more than SW, but it is *still* to an extent "magic" The only real difference I see is that we as a people have tried to make the tech of ST REAL, but SW is seen (rightly) as more of as "space fantasy".

In Defiance, you can take a magical feat and claim it is made possible by alien tech without ever having to explain it. The *now* where Defiance is set is even illogical. Is there a lake nearby? A coastline? Is the ground particularly fertile? In other words, WHY Defiance (old St Louis)?

One word.
Symbolism.

Haves and have nots have nothing to do with money unless you are talking about a culture that uses it. Trade does not equal the exchange of money. You cant have such people when trade is based in barter, unless an individual or individuals come to control a limited resource like food or water. Back to defending the show again?......

Only from stupid shit that makes no sense.

A nuclear war would not destroy the borders of nations (which do not exist anyway in reality), it would not change the topography of the landscape and turn Beverly Hills into a cave or an ocean. It would not change Australia into southern Asia. The terraforming in Defiance has changed EVERYTHING, including animals and plants. No nuclear war could do that.

You DO know what a nuclear winter is, right??
Or is that just a load of "hokum"?

The world of Defiance is a huge deus ex machina allowing the writers to use any locale and claim it is downtown Los Angeles after terraforming.

Sure, fair cop.

I will waste no time trying to find ways to explain away truly stupid writing and premise for this show. Several shows I liked got cancelled like "V" and Primeval: New World. But the flaws in the show were reflected in poor ratings and I had to face the fact that although I was willing to give much of it a pass, most were not.

Do you see me trying to tell you that DEFIANCE WILL LIVE ON YOU SILLY H8TR!!!!
Nope, not at all. What you see me doing is trying to make sense of what I am given, nothing more, nothing LESS.

I want to like the show, but there is just nothing to like about it to me except seeing the stupidity they have cobbled together. I laughed when I saw the convertible with a freshener tree hanging from the rearview tooling around in Defiance. WHY they were in the car didn't really matter to me. That is how I watch this show.

See, there is the stark difference, you have given up on trying to find any sense to it, I still want to. Does that make me a "sucker", well, NO. I have already paid for my cable sub. I will not waste my time finding any other way to watch the show, and if I miss it, oh well. It airs here first run on Thursday, I generally don't watch it till Sat or sun when I get time.

Bolded describes the whole show for me.

Yes it is too late, and the show will die because of it I have no illusions that it will do anything else. What *I* see, and you seemingly do not is that it was another good idea, *like SGU was* that got flushed because the people "in charge" have no idea what to do with good ideas other than to milk them for what they can, and THAT my friend is what really shits me off the most.

Syfy Rewind! You can watch all new episodes the day after it is aired.

http://www.syfy.com/rewind/

Bit passed day after yeah?

 

[Overmind One]

WHY do they think this is sexy, and WHY does this alien bitch lay in a tub of water with candles burning? So, they had candles on Votan too? They keep throwing these things at me assaulting my intelligence at every turn. This is why I keep my sleeves rolled up:

Does anyone really think that this skinny woman who looks like an animated corpse/vampire is sexy? I think she has a beautiful smile, but why do they keep trying to sexualize this alien female? All she does is cater to the men and sit poking her fingers at some woven tangle like she is weaving something. In her spare time, she has lesbian encounters at the whorehouse whilst making arrangements to get her son laid. REALLY? How can I not just cut loose on the criticism? They just wont let me try and like this show. DAMN!

 

[Gatefan1976]

WHY do they think this is sexy, and WHY does this alien bitch lay in a tub of water with candles burning? So, they had candles on Votan too? They keep throwing these things at me assaulting my intelligence at every turn. This is why I keep my sleeves rolled up:

View attachment 28296

Does anyone really think that this skinny woman who looks like an animated corpse/vampire is sexy? I think she has a beautiful smile, but why do they keep trying to sexualize this alien female? All she does is cater to the men and sit poking her fingers at some woven tangle like she is weaving something. In her spare time, she las lesbian encounters at the whorehouse whilst making arrangements to get her son laid. REALLY? How can I not just cut loost on the criticism? They just wont let me try and like this show. DAMN!

Oh come on man, you KNOW the answer to those questions already.

 

[Overmind One]

See me disagree??
Nope, me neither

Ahhhh
No it does not, advancing his position motivates him, In fact IIRC, in the pilot someone came up to him in the street to pay his "cut" and Datak was offended by the public acknowledgement of him being a "mafia boss". For him it is ALL about perception. That's *not* money bro.

Gangsters don't "flash their cash" they want to be seen as "legitimate businessmen" Oh sure they will use the *benefits* of having cash, but that is not their motivation.

What well known gangster did NOT flash his cash in the form of clothes, cars, homes and jewelry? Yes, Datak values prestige and perception, but WHY?

Dude, you are assuming that all of the people on the arks are "high minded nobles" and that's a pretty silly trap to fall into. You are a VOY fan, HOW THE HELL did Sutter even get considered for not only Starfleet, but then the supposedly higher minded Marquis?? Dude was a freaking psychotic murderer!!! You pack up a civilization, you take the good and the bad, and from all info we have Datak was a low ranking douche on the arks.

Bolded: IS IT? Try on the robes....you need to save your civilization. You have the resources and manpower to build arks to save your people, but not all of them. You have to choose who goes. Do you pick the losers and the weak? Probably not. What if you do choose the strong and talented, and this was a generational armada and the offspring went to shit? How did Datak or the other Votans form these (evidently cultural) hierarchies based on material/social gain whilst on those arks?

How much of TOS "science" was considered viable when it *first* aired dude? Trek does indeed try to explain it's "magic" far more than SW, but it is *still* to an extent "magic" The only real difference I see is that we as a people have tried to make the tech of ST REAL, but SW is seen (rightly) as more of as "space fantasy".


One word.
Symbolism.

Okay, whatever...

Only from stupid shit that makes no sense.

Actually you are defending what does NOT make sense from that which does make sense.

You DO know what a nuclear winter is, right??
Or is that just a load of "hokum"?

Nuclear winter, even a string of them interspersed with global nuclear bombardment would not change coastlines, raise or lower mountains, create new land and submerge existing land. The same Mt Everest would exist after 200 nuclear wars, each with a nuclear winter between each of them. Defiance sits in a mountainous gulley which was once flat land near a river. The entire bio-ecology has completely changed, as has the food chain of higher animals. No nuclear war/winter can do any of that.

Sure, fair cop.

Do you see me trying to tell you that DEFIANCE WILL LIVE ON YOU SILLY H8TR!!!!
Nope, not at all. What you see me doing is trying to make sense of what I am given, nothing more, nothing LESS.

Hows about we watch Tank Girl! Perhaps you can find something redeeming in it that I failed to see.

See, there is the stark difference, you have given up on trying to find any sense to it, I still want to. Does that make me a "sucker", well, NO. I have already paid for my cable sub. I will not waste my time finding any other way to watch the show, and if I miss it, oh well. It airs here first run on Thursday, I generally don't watch it till Sat or sun when I get time.

But I am watching every single episode...I have committed to that. Does that make me a sucker? No, but it does qualify me to comment in detail about the show, even though I hate it.

Yes it is too late, and the show will die because of it I have no illusions that it will do anything else. What *I* see, and you seemingly do not is that it was another good idea, *like SGU was* that got flushed because the people "in charge" have no idea what to do with good ideas other than to milk them for what they can, and THAT my friend is what really shits me off the most.

The bolded, I agree, SGU was a good idea...if it had not had the Stargate name or a stargate on its deck, it would have been a GREAT idea. But as you pointed out and we all saw, it was poorly executed and had poorly developed characters that they tried too hard to change after the fact. It became too late after Season 1 ruined its future. But to me, Defiance is not really a good idea

Bit passed day after yeah?

Yeah...since I am not on a schedule anymore, I can watch things on Syfy on my own time now. But at least it is available...it wasnt just a year ago.