DEFIANCE game and TV show - sink or swim?

[Gatefan1976]

What well known gangster did NOT flash his cash in the form of clothes, cars, homes and jewelry? Yes, Datak values prestige and perception, but WHY?

Because we need to see him through a "human mirror" and Irathian culture, from ALL we have seen of Irathian culture (piss-poor
though it is) values social advancement/perception more than anything else. Why would they execute a dude for "being weak in front of others" for any other reason?

Bolded: IS IT? Try on the robes....you need to save your civilization. You have the resources and manpower to build arks to save your people, You have the resources and manpower to build arks to save your people, but not all of them.

WTF are you basing the last part on dude??
ER is a nebulous concept to be sure, but to say "they couldn't save them all" is just bringing in your own shit.

Do you pick the losers and the weak? Probably not. What if you do choose the strong and talented, and this was a generational armada and the offspring went to shit? How did Datak or the other Votans form these (evidently cultural) hierarchies based on material/social gain whilst on those arks?

You are answering your own question dude!!

Okay, whatever...

to what?

Actually you are defending what does NOT make sense from that which does make sense.

How so?

Nuclear winter, even a string of them interspersed with global nuclear bombardment would not change coastlines, raise or lower mountains, create new land and submerge existing land. The same Mt Everest would exist after 200 nuclear wars, each with a nuclear winter between each of them. Defiance sits in a mountainous gulley which was once flat land near a river. The entire bio-ecology has completely changed, as has the food chain of higher animals. No nuclear war/winter can do any of that.

What would be the effect of dropping a targeted nuke in the San Andreas Faultline dude? Great surf conditions??
I agree with your basic premise, mass nuke wars would have very little impact on the physical geography of our world, but to think it would not affect everything else is just silly. It took a 3 KM asteroid to cause a GLOBAL Ice age that killed the dominant species of the planet, what would happen of we dropped 10 nukes on Yosemite and triggered the supervolcano to blow?

Hows about we watch Tank Girl! Perhaps you can find something redeeming in it that I failed to see.

I probably could, but I would still think it sucked ass.

But I am watching every single episode...I have committed to that. Does that make me a sucker? No, but it does qualify me to comment in detail about the show, even though I hate it.

But WHY comment on stupid shit?
"They use money, so it sucks"
"They have baths, so it sucks"
How's about taking on something that really just *sucks* like the piss-poor writing or lack of exposition that REALLY sucks like Joe did?

The bolded, I agree, SGU was a good idea...if it had not had the Stargate name or a stargate on its deck, it would have been a GREAT idea.

It could have worked if it EMBRACED the existing Stargate Mythos rather than treating it like a "foul appendage in need of severing"

But as you pointed out and we all saw, it was poorly executed and had poorly developed characters that they tried too hard to change after the fact. It became too late after Season 1 ruined its future. But to me, Defiance is not really a good idea

Why are the concepts of Defiance "not really a good idea"?

Yeah...since I am not on a schedule

Syfy Rewind has been around for quite awhile for the US dude

 

[shavedape]

Regarding the issue of currency in other shows such as Firefly, B5, Farscape, etc., having currency in those shows makes sense in context. There doesn't even need to be an examination of the economic system within those shows to understand the legitimacy of their use of currency. Within all those stories there existed established societies (human and alien) that were big enough and had been around long enough to legitimately be using money (credits, paper, gold bars, etc.). In fact, the bad guy is often the giant government that has been around forever and is the established standard.

The world of DEFIANCE though has not existed long enough for the use of paper money to make any legitimate sense, at least not as presented. Even the Earth Republic isn't big enough or strong enough to assimilate the relatively small town of Defiance, so how is it that they're big enough and strong enough to have currency that is the accepted standard throughout the entire world??? Quite simply, there would not be enough trust on the part of Joe Citizen to accept paper currency that is backed by an attenuated political body in such a hand-to-mouth world.

Seriously guys, we really need to fire off a letter to the producers of this turd. Silence = sanction.

 

[Bluce Ree]

What would be the effect of dropping a targeted nuke in the San Andreas Faultline dude? Great surf conditions??
I agree with your basic premise, mass nuke wars would have very little impact on the physical geography of our world, but to think it would not affect everything else is just silly. It took a 3 KM asteroid to cause a GLOBAL Ice age that killed the dominant species of the planet, what would happen of we dropped 10 nukes on Yosemite and triggered the supervolcano to blow?

Dude, if I come into your country and erase your government, everything falls into chaos. If I delete your banking system, commerce almost immediately stops. If I do this all over the planet and throw in cataclysmic events such as terraforming, we've now descended into complete chaos with no financial infrastructure, no governments and no border controls existing any longer to maintain and control currency, trade, jobs, manufacturing, commercial agriculture, etc. An economy as we know it no longer exists and is replaced with one driven by need. I need food, I need water, I need shelter. Your pile of money is worth exactly shit to me.

The US no longer exists so its currency is now monopoly money. China no longer exists, Australia no longer exists, Japan, France, Italy, you name it, all their currencies are gone along with the existence of the countries and their economic infrastructures.

So, what happens now? Who's money is still valid if the country that owns the currency no longer exists?

Now, let's rebuild a society post-invasion, after all these events took place. Sovereign nations no longer exist as borders have disappeared. Banks as they were are gone and along with it the entire currently known financial and trade infrastructure. The notion of wealth that was based on accumulation of assets and currency is also gone.

The old economical infrastructure is completely gone.

How do we start up a money-based economy again? Who or what decides what money is and what it's worth? What is the money based on? What will the currency you're printing get me or guarantee me? What guarantees do I have that my $100 will even be accepted in the next town, let alone knowing if it would even have the same value.

Yes, it can be done, but, the entire planet in 11 years following an apocalyptic event that nearly wiped the planet clean and left nothing of the old world in place? Give me a f**king break.

The only way to shoehorn a currency system under Defecation's Earth Republic control is by dictatorship. They print money, declare its value and every citizen and merchant is forced under threat to accept it at the value the government tells you it's worth. Inflation would be regulated, salaries would be regulated, prices would be regulated, costs would be regulated, there would be no free market. Without free market, currency is just a bunch of coupons everyone is forced to accept as equal trade for goods.

 

[shavedape]

Dude, if I come into your country and erase your government, everything falls into chaos. If I delete your banking system, commerce almost immediately stops. If I do this all over the planet and throw in cataclysmic events such as terraforming, we've now descended into complete chaos with no financial infrastructure, no governments and no border controls existing any longer to maintain and control currency, trade, jobs, manufacturing, commercial agriculture, etc. An economy as we know it no longer exists and is replaced with one driven by need. I need food, I need water, I need shelter. Your pile of money is worth exactly shit to me.

The US no longer exists so its currency is now monopoly money. China no longer exists, Australia no longer exists, Japan, France, Italy, you name it, all their currencies are gone along with the existence of the countries and their economic infrastructures.

So, what happens now? Who's money is still valid if the country that owns the currency no longer exists?

Now, let's rebuild a society post-invasion, after all these events took place. Sovereign nations no longer exist as borders have disappeared. Banks as they were are gone and along with it the entire currently known financial and trade infrastructure. The notion of wealth that was based on accumulation of assets and currency is also gone.

The old economical infrastructure is completely gone.

How do we start up a money-based economy again? Who or what decides what money is and what it's worth? What is the money based on? What will the currency you're printing get me or guarantee me? What guarantees do I have that my $100 will even be accepted in the next town, let alone knowing if it would even have the same value.

Yes, it can be done, but, the entire planet in 11 years following an apocalyptic event that nearly wiped the planet clean and left nothing of the old world in place? Give me a f**king break.

The only way to shoehorn a currency system under Defecation's Earth Republic control is by dictatorship. They print money, declare its value and every citizen and merchant is forced under threat to accept it at the value the government tells you it's worth. Inflation would be regulated, salaries would be regulated, prices would be regulated, costs would be regulated, there would be no free market. Without free market, currency is just a bunch of coupons everyone is forced to accept as equal trade for goods.

And if the Earth Republic is a dictatorship then there wouldn't be any discussion of Defiance joining them; it would be a done deal. This wouldn't even be a plot point.

And like I pointed out earlier, if the ER is allowing the Defiance region to use their currency then they could easily pull the rug out from Defiance if they don't comply with every ER edict issued. In short, the use of ER currency already makes Defiance a "slave" to the state. There would be no discussion of joining the ER because Defiance already belongs to it.

 

[Jim of WVa]

Joseph Smith had a bank in Kirtland OH. To convince people to deposit money, he took boxes of straw and placed a layer of silver coins on top of the straw so that people thought that he had some money. Eventually, his ruse was discovered (Sir Allen Stanford) and he was chased out of town.

EDIT: The whole story is more complicated. See the Wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirtland_Safety_Society
--- merged: Jun 14, 2013 at 7:08 PM ---

And if the Earth Republic is a dictatorship then there wouldn't be any discussion of Defiance joining them; it would be a done deal. This wouldn't even be a plot point.

And like I pointed out earlier, if the ER is allowing the Defiance region to use their currency then they could easily pull the rug out from Defiance if they don't comply with every ER edict issued. In short, the use of ER currency already makes Defiance a "slave" to the state. There would be no discussion of joining the ER because Defiance already belongs to it.

The paper money being used on the show may be just the private money issued by a bank either in Defiance or somewhere in the Earth Republic. Private banks in the U.S. during the 19th century issued private money that the bank agreed to exchange with gold and/or silver. Some U.S. private money in the 19th century was not worth the paper used to print it.

 

[shavedape]

Joseph Smith had a bank in Kirtland OH. To convince people to deposit money, he took boxes of straw and placed a layer of silver coins on top of the straw so that people thought that he had some money. Eventually, his ruse was discovered (Sir Allen Stanford) and he was chased out of town.

EDIT: The whole story is more complicated. See the Wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirtland_Safety_Society
--- merged: Jun 14, 2013 at 7:08 PM ---


The paper money being used on the show may be just the private money issued by a bank either in Defiance or somewhere in the Earth Republic. Private banks in the U.S. during the 19th century issued private money that the bank agreed to exchange with gold and/or silver. Some U.S. private money in the 19th century was not worth the paper used to print it.

Even more reason why the people who populate Defiance would use a barter system as opposed to a currency system. Such hard scrabble living necessitates risk-free practicality with ones resources. It is, quite literally, a matter of life and death.

 

[Overmind One]

Even more reason why the people who populate Defiance would use a barter system as opposed to a currency system. Such hard scrabble living necessitates risk-free practicality with ones resources. It is, quite literally, a matter of life and death.

Unfortunately, the mistake being made with these writers and with the audience of this show who accept that money exists in the future without question, is the assumption that capitalism is an advanced concept...it is not. It is a construct used to prop up governments (and individuals) and cannot exist in a post-apocalyptic earth rebuilding itself. Also, the aversion to socialism and communism created by American politics and "western thought" does not take true economic principles into account when writing this fake science fiction. They cant write futuristic economies if they don't understand economics can they? The idea that money would exist in the future is laughable. Material gain as wealth is a dying concept and the future will most likely not use money at all. Even now, the idea of using bills and coins seems quaint.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Unfortunately, the mistake being made with these writers and with the audience of this show who accept that money exists in the future without question, is the assumption that capitalism is an advanced concept...it is not. It is a construct used to prop up governments (and individuals) and cannot exist in a post-apocalyptic earth rebuilding itself.

Sure, but as I said before, I think this has more to do with needing something for the *game*, rather than the show. (like the no flying because of radiation)

Also, the aversion to socialism and communism created by American politics and "western thought" does not take true economic principles into account when writing this fake science fiction. They cant write futuristic economies if they don't understand economics can they? The idea that money would exist in the future is laughable. Material gain as wealth is a dying concept and the future will most likely not use money at all. Even now, the idea of using bills and coins seems quaint.

It does, but we still have *money*, just like Trek still has money.

 

[Overmind One]

Sure, but as I said before, I think this has more to do with needing something for the *game*, rather than the show. (like the no flying because of radiation)

It does, but we still have *money*, just like Trek still has money.

I agree about the game using the money and that is why they are using it in the show...but you are wrong about Trek. Money is used in Trek only to accomodate the use of forms of it by OTHER aliens, not by earth or the Federation. If you do not have advanced technology like replicators or a fleet of ships capable of using sensors to find minerals and substances, then money might still have a purpose, but you cannot claim that any places on earth use money.

 

[Gatefan1976]

I agree about the game using the money and that is why they are using it in the show...but you are wrong about Trek. Money is used in Trek only to accomodate the use of forms of it by OTHER aliens, not by earth or the Federation. If you do not have advanced technology like replicators or a fleet of ships capable of using sensors to find minerals and substances, then money might still have a purpose, but you cannot claim that any places on earth use money.

Not on Earth perhaps, but they *do* use access to things like transporters and such in a "barter style" economy. Also Ferengi have access to all these things, yet they still use money. The Orion syndicate has plenty of humans in it, and they use money. *Starfleet* generally does not use money, but the Federation is not just "Starfleet"

 

[Overmind One]

Not on Earth perhaps, but they *do* use access to things like transporters and such in a "barter style" economy. Also Ferengi have access to all these things, yet they still use money. The Orion syndicate has plenty of humans in it, and they use money. *Starfleet* generally does not use money, but the Federation is not just "Starfleet"

Of course...but the arguments you make with regard to money being used in Defiance might be the result of not completely knowing much about how currency gets its value and how it came to be used on earth as we use it today and have used it throughout history. I dont know what you already know about economics.

Put it this way...gold pressed latinum is a hard currency and also a physical asset. Ferenginar cant just declare GPL "worthless", any more than the United States can declare gold "worthless". Even if they did, it would still be gladly accepted by merchants worldwide. As such, GPL is money only because others have agreed to accept it as payment. Barter style economics is the only economy that makes sense, and is a natural development in cultures, and even in the future between (as yet undiscovered) alien cultures. Most certainly, no alien from Planet Gatefan in the Pleiades would accept a bunch of shreds of paper being claimed as being worth 500 trillion dollars, over a small mountain of gold weighing say...1000 pounds. If nothing else, gold is prettier, easy to shape, and has outstanding electrical and anti corrosion properties.

 

[Bluce Ree]

Of course...but the arguments you make with regard to money being used in Defiance might be the result of not completely knowing much about how currency gets its value and how it came to be used on earth as we use it today and have used it throughout history. I dont know what you already know about economics.

Put it this way...gold pressed latinum is a hard currency and also a physical asset. Ferenginar cant just declare GPL "worthless", any more than the United States can declare gold "worthless". Even if they did, it would still be gladly accepted by merchants worldwide. As such, GPL is money only because others have agreed to accept it as payment. Barter style economics is the only economy that makes sense, and is a natural development in cultures, and even in the future between (as yet undiscovered) alien cultures. Most certainly, no alien from Planet Gatefan in the Pleiades would accept a bunch of shreds of paper being claimed as being worth 500 trillion dollars, over a small mountain of gold weighing say...1000 pounds. If nothing else, gold is prettier, easy to shape, and has outstanding electrical and anti corrosion properties.

All this talk if currency brings back an old question of mine posted here a while back. If I throw a sack containing $1000 in pennies through someone's window and cause $200 worth of damage, does that technically constitute a settlement?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Overmind One]

All this talk if currency brings back an old question of mine posted here a while back. If I throw a sack containing $1000 in pennies through someone's window and cause $200 worth of damage, does that technically constitute a settlement?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

I imagine it would! I wonder...if some whacky show did that, by putting say, $5000 in quarters and smashed it through somebody's living room window...just to see if the "victim" would actually call the authorities.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Of course...but the arguments you make with regard to money being used in Defiance might be the result of not completely knowing much about how currency gets its value and how it came to be used on earth as we use it today and have used it throughout history. I dont know what you already know about economics.

Depends on the scale and level of detail you are talking

Put it this way...gold pressed latinum is a hard currency and also a physical asset. Ferenginar cant just declare GPL "worthless", any more than the United States can declare gold "worthless". Even if they did, it would still be gladly accepted by merchants worldwide. As such, GPL is money only because others have agreed to accept it as payment.

It also cannot be replicated, which is the main reason it is used as a currency.

Barter style economics is the only economy that makes sense, and is a natural development in cultures, and even in the future between (as yet undiscovered) alien cultures.

Which is funny considering that is what we "evolved" out of

Most certainly, no alien from Planet Gatefan in the Pleiades would accept a bunch of shreds of paper being claimed as being worth 500 trillion dollars, over a small mountain of gold weighing say...1000 pounds. If nothing else, gold is prettier, easy to shape, and has outstanding electrical and anti corrosion properties.

Actually, from small planet circling a dark star near Alderbaran.......................

 

[Bluce Ree]

I imagine it would! I wonder...if some whacky show did that, by putting say, $5000 in quarters and smashed it through somebody's living room window...just to see if the "victim" would actually call the authorities.

Now I wish I had piss-away money to start up my own limited run reality show, even as a Youtube series.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Now I wish I had piss-away money to start up my own limited run reality show, even as a Youtube series.

Just break cheaper items

 

[Bluce Ree]

Just break cheaper items

The window would be the most expensive part of this stunt.

 

[Gatefan1976]

The window would be the most expensive part of this stunt.

You could always do this:http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot35.htm
At least then it would be more fun

 

[heisenberg]

Well if we are speaking about currencies, start trek TNG/Voyager never had any.

 

[Overmind One]

Well if we are speaking about currencies, start trek TNG/Voyager never had any.

TRUE! Neither did TOS or Enterprise or DS9...but they showed it being used (the Ferengi) Even then, it was actual currenct (gold pressed latinum) and not bill currency or coins.