DEFIANCE game and TV show - sink or swim?

[shavedape]

The money seems to be a Earth Alliance thing, which seems to be a rather large government if it can dictate who gets what with things such as the railway system they want for defiance. Why they don't use more barter in the show, you got me there, they should as they are a semi-autonomous city. Quite frankly, I think the whole money issue has more to do with the game than the show itself. Would you prefer they used gold pieces instead dude?

Defiance isn't part of the Earth Alliance, which is one of the plot points of the show. The EA wants to swallow up Defiance and take away its autonomy. So why would the EA allow its currency to circulate in Defiance, unless of course they are doing so in order to woo Defiance into joining the EA. Once the citizens are "addicted" to using EA backed currency then the EA could essentially make bank notes in Defiance worthless with the stroke of a pen if Defiance didn't join them. Now, if this is the case with the story then we need to be told that. It's ridiculous that I, a casual viewer, had to come up with a plausible scenario to explain their currency.
--- merged: Jun 13, 2013 at 7:03 AM ---

The age of fiat currency started with Richard Nixon in 1972...yep. Never before was paper currency (or any currency) backed by nothing but air. US notes were backed by gold, then by silver, then in 1972, Nixon removed the gold standard making the bills essentially worthless. ALL of the world's currency is backed by nothing but debt. Essentially an IOU. This is why it must collapse eventually. Before, currency could be "cashed in" for something real. But today, most of the trillions in debt could not be cashed in for anything real. There is no need (or infrastructure) to allow fiat currency to exist in Defiance or anywhere else. The value systems have changed because of the terraforming and the arkfalls. Gold might be worthless in their world...perhaps it is now a rare crystal which has value...or an ArkBrain or perhaps certain metals. There in no intrinsic value attached to money.

The use of money in Defiance makes me angry as hell, just like it did in Terra Nova.

I would, yes. The idea that they are using fiat currency (bills) is ridiculous.

Exactly. Let's say I'm a shopkeeper in a post-apocalyptic town. There isn't a chance in hell that I'm going to take fiat currency because it's not backed by anything. In a hand-to-mouth existence kind of world bartering would be the top "currency". Then possibly a type of currency backed by something tangible like gold, or a useful resource. Fiat currency wouldn't even make the list.

 

[Bluce Ree]

Defiance isn't part of the Earth Alliance, which is one of the plot points of the show. The EA wants to swallow up Defiance and take away its autonomy. So why would the EA allow its currency to circulate in Defiance, unless of course they are doing so in order to woo Defiance into joining the EA. Once the citizens are "addicted" to using EA backed currency then the EA could essentially make bank notes in Defiance worthless with the stroke of a pen if Defiance didn't join them. Now, if this is the case with the story then we need to be told that. It's ridiculous that I, a casual viewer, had to come up with a plausible scenario to explain their currency.

That would explain the presence of currency in the town of Defecation but, again, in a rebooted post-apocalyptic society with a newly formed EA government that came out of the ashes of the old world, how did they decide a cup of coffee is worth $X or a tomato is worth $Y or gasoline is worth $Z?

Economies are far more complex than "I now declare this is money. Here is the official government list of pricing on everything" because that's what it would take for currency to exist in that new world as it is right now.


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[shavedape]

That would explain the presence of currency in the town of Defecation but, again, in a rebooted post-apocalyptic society with a newly formed EA government that came out of the ashes of the old world, how did they decide a cup of coffee is worth $X or a tomato is worth $Y or gasoline is worth $Z?

Economies are far more complex than "I now declare this is money. Here is the official government list of pricing on everything" because that's what it would take for currency to exist in that new world as it is right now.

Again, exactly this. It boggles the mind that this group of writers, all of whom no doubt went to college, have zero understanding of basic economics. This is stuff that a grade school kid can figure out. Seriously.

 

[Jim of WVa]

The age of fiat currency started with Richard Nixon in 1972...yep. Never before was paper currency (or any currency) backed by nothing but air. US notes were backed by gold, then by silver, then in 1972, Nixon removed the gold standard making the bills essentially worthless. ALL of the world's currency is backed by nothing but debt. Essentially an IOU. This is why it must collapse eventually. Before, currency could be "cashed in" for something real. But today, most of the trillions in debt could not be cashed in for anything real. There is no need (or infrastructure) to allow fiat currency to exist in Defiance or anywhere else. The value systems have changed because of the terraforming and the arkfalls. Gold might be worthless in their world...perhaps it is now a rare crystal which has value...or an ArkBrain or perhaps certain metals. There in no intrinsic value attached to money.

The use of money in Defiance makes me angry as hell, just like it did in Terra Nova.

It does not help that the Obama's and Bush's butthole buddy Bernake has been printing money as fast as the presses will print. QEn anybody!

 

[Overmind One]

It does not help that the Obama's and Bush's butthole buddy Bernake has been printing money as fast as the presses will print. QEn anybody!

I agree. But Obama has no control over the Federal Reserve and neither did Bush. What needs to happen is that the Federal Reserve which is a private corporation, needs to be nationalized. But that is another thread. It was Bush who appointed Bernacke to the Federal reserve, not Obama. Bush is the catalyst which drove millions of Republicans like me out of the GOP, and this one of the reasons. Bush made so many horrible moves and enacted so many un-American policies both domestically and internationally, that he literally swerved the wheel and took America offroad and towards the cliff and we actually went over. Obama softened the fall with the bailouts, but it was Bush who pushed the nation off the cliff.

 

[ParagonPie]

Adding in a futile suggestion here.

They could add in a merchants guild (made up of the old corporations, or hell even the Federal reserve) which establishes a standard hard currency of some kind, similar to how the Knights Templar figured out a way of transporting vast amounts of gold/money into the Holy Land (since there is no electronic method of transfer here), thus becoming a very large power player in the grand scheme of things (i.e. piss these guys off and you loose your value and trade rights). Maybe having the Earth Alliance trying to usurp the Merchants Guild because they have wield too much power (again in reference to when the Pope of the time excommunicated the Knights Templar, because they were gaining too much power).

 

[Overmind One]

Adding in a futile suggestion here.

They could add in a merchants guild (made up of the old corporations, or hell even the Federal reserve) which establishes a standard hard currency of some kind, similar to how the Knights Templar figured out a way of transporting vast amounts of gold/money into the Holy Land (since there is no electronic method of transfer here), thus becoming a very large power player in the grand scheme of things (i.e. piss these guys off and you loose your value and trade rights). Maybe having the Earth Alliance trying to usurp the Merchants Guild because they have wield too much power (again in reference to when the Pope of the time excommunicated the Knights Templar, because they were gaining too much power).

Interesting, but the infrastructure to implement fiat currency just does not exist in Defiance from what I have seen. If there was such an entity, then gangsters like Datak would not be able to operate openly, or collect "cuts". There would be no earnings to make such cuts from, and no need for Datak's "protection". The old corporartions would have collapsed, since they are built on fiat currency and assets/resources which no longer exist. Corporations cannot exist in the Defiance world as it is. The closest thing to it would be a co-op owned by it's citizens, and the fact that there is money being used eliminates that possiblity.

 

[ParagonPie]

Interesting, but the infrastructure to implement fiat currency just does not exist in Defiance from what I have seen. If there was such an entity, then gangsters like Datak would not be able to operate openly, or collect "cuts". There would be no earnings to make such cuts from, and no need for Datak's "protection". The old corporartions would have collapsed, since they are built on fiat currency and assets/resources which no longer exist. Corporations cannot exist in the Defiance world as it is. The closest thing to it would be a co-op owned by it's citizens, and the fact that there is money being used eliminates that possiblity.

I was sort of thinking within my own world (a how I would do it approach). The difference here is that I am not suggesting they are using the fiat system, it is an actual hard currency that also has the ability for paper transference (Knights Templar reference there, since they devised the way) to even other methods of currency such as the Roman soldiers being payed in Salt, point being is that currency doesn't have to be gold or any valuable metal. As for the corporations, I was thinking more a long the lines of them setting up a contingency plan in effect before 'the fall' a consolidation of forces and power for example (which could also be said about the national governments of the world). (Edit when I mean the Corps, I mean the few ones that actually hold the power)

The idea in general wasn't to apply it now since the damage has been done, but again as me being Captain Hindsight.

Its what I do now for a living.

 

[Joelist]

Yep. Paper currency does not mean fiat currency. Paper currency has been around since the 1600s in the West and several centuries before that in China. Usually it is a banknote where the paper represents another item that possesses value in and of itself. Banknotes can be precious metals, land, and even things like livestock and food in some less common cases. They don't even require a government per se - all that is needed is a bank that possesses the items of value and a reason to issue it - like the Venetian bankers did in Medieval times because transporting large amounts of gold proved impractical.

Fiat currency also goes back centuries - 11th Century China at least. But it needs a stable central authority to work because that authority serves as the basis of the value. Hence why it is unlikely Defiance is using fiat currency.

Again the issue goes back to them not explaining any backstory. All it would have taken is a scene with characters remarking on currency and how they now use banknotes or such. Explaining nothing hurts the show.

 

[Gatefan1976]

I checked the Wiki for Scrip and the pretty piss poor reason they gave for it having value is that it represents access to arkfall tech, and that's about it.

 

[Overmind One]

Yep. Paper currency does not mean fiat currency. Paper currency has been around since the 1600s in the West and several centuries before that in China. Usually it is a banknote where the paper represents another item that possesses value in and of itself. Banknotes can be precious metals, land, and even things like livestock and food in some less common cases. They don't even require a government per se - all that is needed is a bank that possesses the items of value and a reason to issue it - like the Venetian bankers did in Medieval times because transporting large amounts of gold proved impractical.

Fiat currency also goes back centuries - 11th Century China at least. But it needs a stable central authority to work because that authority serves as the basis of the value. Hence why it is unlikely Defiance is using fiat currency.

Again the issue goes back to them not explaining any backstory. All it would have taken is a scene with characters remarking on currency and how they now use banknotes or such. Explaining nothing hurts the show.

Bills are not necessarily fiat currency, if they are backed by something real. In a way, every property deed is a form of currency. Pink slips, personal checks (not drafts), all are forms of real currency notes. But the US dollar and all of today's currencies tied to it are worth only what the Fed says they are worth. Intrinsically, they are worth nothing at all. HOWEVER, there are also laws which allow this currency to be used for payment which could not exist in Defiance. Merchants could refuse to accept it, and the buyer would have no recourse...just as Bluce mentioned.

With all of this, there would still be a very unlikely chance that any form of fiat currency could be used in Defiance or any post apocalyptic society. Who would WANT to use it? When the US dollar collapses, as the Confederate dollar did, the wads of useless paper will be good only for fueling bonfires.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Why focus on this notion that it is "fiat currency" dude?

 

[ParagonPie]

Why focus on this notion that it is "fiat currency" dude?

He secretly wants a Fiat Punto, and doesn't have the currency for it ^_^

 

[Joelist]

They never have said the money in the show is fiat currency. I was simply pointing out it is far more likely to be banknotes. They call it "scrip" and it seems to be issued through Earth Republic. Again of course this is never explained in the show - you need to do online research to discern it.

 

[Overmind One]

Why focus on this notion that it is "fiat currency" dude?

Because fiat currency has no intrinsic value (is not backed by real assets). Fiat currency is backed by agreement, whereas currency is backed by resources/assets. HUGE difference. Monopoly money is fiat currency. An amazon gift card is currency (because it is pre-paid). Monopoly money has value because the players agree it does. Currency has value because it represents a unit of value based in something real. Gold is currency backed by its agreed value, but also by its limited availability. Even sheep are currency when used to purchase property or a wife or cows.
--- merged: Jun 13, 2013 at 4:15 PM ---

They never have said the money in the show is fiat currency. I was simply pointing out it is far more likely to be banknotes. They call it "scrip" and it seems to be issued through Earth Republic. Again of course this is never explained in the show - you need to do online research to discern it.

Well, they never tell us anything or show us anything about this Earth Republic, and if there is such an entity, who controls who rules Defiance? I should not have to look at some wiki or blog to find out what is going on in this show, and I dont like it enough to guess. The official site says nothing of any of this garbage they have in the show.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Because fiat currency has no intrinsic value (is not backed by real assets). Fiat currency is backed by agreement, whereas currency is backed by resources/assets. HUGE difference.

Yes, but nothing indicates that scrip *is* a fiat currency, does it? The wiki says it represents access to arkfall tech, which would be like your gift card concept.

Well, they never tell us anything or show us anything about this Earth Republic, and if there is such an entity

They reference EA a bit dude, it's based in LA IIRC.

who controls who rules Defiance?

The people, they have an elected mayor and "sitting council", also shown in show.

I should not have to look at some wiki or blog to find out what is going on in this show, and I dont like it enough to guess. The official site says nothing of any of this garbage they have in the show.

No, you shouldn't and THAT is the real stuff up as Joe keeps saying. Too many elements are being introduced in a "by the way" manner, and that is pathetic. Half the plotlines simply should not exist as of yet in order to complete at least some of the other plotlines so the show makes overall internal sense. Ditch the artefact storyline which has taken chunks of the B and some of the A storylines and use that time to explain the EA, what changes the arkfalls and terraforming have wrought, the fall-out of the pale wars and such. The only B story I would be running if I were in charge would be the 2 kids, and ONLY as a platform to showcase cultural differences between humans and a representative Votan race, the rest would be SHOWING what the world looks and behaves like now.

 

[shavedape]

I think we all agree about the currency issue here. And we seem to all agree that it's just one flaw from a whole list of flaws that can't be overlooked when it comes to suspending our disbelief.

Personally I'm getting really tired of this crap. Such sloppy, incoherent, arrogant, "Don't-give-a-crap" writing is hurting the scifi genre, not advancing it. It's not a matter of money that's being spent on production that's the problem as we've seen amazing shows produced on shoe string budgets that were riveting in terms of scifi storytelling.

The problem seems to be that writing standards have dropped sharply in the past few years. It would be one thing if we were getting good derivative stories told to us but we don't even get that anymore. All we get are stolen concepts and ripped-off characters and cliche' plots thrown into a "story" with nothing that logically ties them together.

How can this possibly help continue or even advance the genre? What young viewer of DEFIANCE is going to be inspired to write their own scifi story in a similar vein when the original they're emulating is a confused mish mash of junk?

 

[Gatefan1976]

I think we all agree about the currency issue here. And we seem to all agree that it's just one flaw from a whole list of flaws that can't be overlooked when it comes to suspending our disbelief.

Precisely. I only liked Goodbye blue Sky because it was probably the first ep to maintain internal consistency, it was still not "good", it was just, consistant within it's established setting.

Personally I'm getting really tired of this crap. Such sloppy, incoherent, arrogant, "Don't-give-a-crap" writing is hurting the scifi genre, not advancing it. It's not a matter of money that's being spent on production that's the problem as we've seen amazing shows produced on shoe string budgets that were riveting in terms of scifi storytelling.

See, this is what strikes me as odd because Farscape was such a well done show by the same person, what is happening "at the top" to make these things happen? Is it the Writers not caring? Are the networks getting too involved?

The problem seems to be that writing standards have dropped sharply in the past few years.

Ever since the writers strike it has gone down because networks scrambled to replace their scripted shows with crap, and the crap still made them money, probably even more money than they did before.

It would be one thing if we were getting good derivative stories told to us but we don't even get that anymore. All we get are stolen concepts and ripped-off characters and cliche' plots thrown into a "story" with nothing that logically ties them together.

Exactly. You study enough stories and you can see the lines of derivation, but as long as the story is told in it's own unique way, we ignore it, or better yet, we revel in the similarities because we enjoy "that kind of story"

How can this possibly help continue or even advance the genre? What young viewer of DEFIANCE is going to be inspired to write their own scifi story in a similar vein when the original they're emulating is a confused mish mash of junk?

Hear Hear!!

 

[Overmind One]

Yes, but nothing indicates that scrip *is* a fiat currency, does it? The wiki says it represents access to arkfall tech, which would be like your gift card concept.

They reference EA a bit dude, it's based in LA IIRC.

The people, they have an elected mayor and "sitting council", also shown in show.

No, you shouldn't and THAT is the real stuff up as Joe keeps saying. Too many elements are being introduced in a "by the way" manner, and that is pathetic. Half the plotlines simply should not exist as of yet in order to complete at least some of the other plotlines so the show makes overall internal sense. Ditch the artefact storyline which has taken chunks of the B and some of the A storylines and use that time to explain the EA, what changes the arkfalls and terraforming have wrought, the fall-out of the pale wars and such. The only B story I would be running if I were in charge would be the 2 kids, and ONLY as a platform to showcase cultural differences between humans and a representative Votan race, the rest would be SHOWING what the world looks and behaves like now.

THIS...and it would transform this show immensely.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Is it the effect of stuff like "lost" spewing into all our entertainment that we want this "mystery with no answer" shit that we are seeing now? "Start 5 different storylines, don't really resolve any of them so you can appeal to as many people as possible"?

People like to see this shit, stroke their beards and go "oh this show is so deep and multi-layered" when in reality they are just being strung along for as long as possible and milked for their perceived value in marketing dollars. It's not deep, it's not some kind of "fantastic storytelling onion" it's half assed, piss poor destruction of what often are good core idea's. At least Transformers is honest enough to wear the moniker of "action flick" with pride in an age where "action" is a dirty word.