DEFIANCE game and TV show - sink or swim?

[Gatefan1976]

So you have got the "Ire" out now? GOOD, we can talk now

Ill stand by that definition of the show too, I guess. I still love hating this show less than hating Stargate Universe. We at least have actual crowds of people, cool post-apocalyptic shit in the background and some glowing tech an' shyt. But the story still has to carry this thing and there isnt one.

Yes, the story does have to carry it, and the one they *appear* to have chosen (the "Artifact", past visitations etc) is just the wrong story for the beginning of a show.

They are not fighting an invasion force, they are not trying to get somewhere, and they are not really trying to build.

They ARE trying to build a "collective", so I will give them a semi-pass on that.

They are all supporting the "status quo" of keeping things basically the same. I do not like the value systems portrayed in this show at all, which fuels my negative view of it. Money? Whores? Gangsters and drug dealers? Nah...I dont like those things in real life either.

If you destroyed all social, legal conventions, what do you think would rise to the top? Zephran Cochrane? Starfleet? Come on bro, these are idealized systems (systems I happen to want mind you) Power would revert to physical displays and emotional contracts. Why Money? well, government systems still exist, Whores? Second eldest profession in the world and probably the first councillers ever. Gangsters and drugs, they exist now in a "better world" than they have in defiance and have for thousands of years, why would they vanish?
You want them to look at "other things"? I get that.

YES! It has . It is adaptive because it took what it had available (Suckit) and used his body to create the device (from available materials) and improvised the entire way to the top of that arch. It even created colorful dialogue for Suckoff and made him dress in the stupid outfit. The Ark Brain itself is an adaptive AI. You dont believe that nannites were preprogrammed to fight hand to hand combat in a reanimated body, and to climb the Defiance arch, do you?

No, I think they are adaptive within their paramaters, and given an obvious external influence via suckit (I'll use your spelling ) they worked within it. the did NOT however make new defensive systems, or do ANYTHING that could be seen as anything but their primary programming.

Cmon man....its one thing to have a phone capable of doing amazing things (I have one), its another for the phone to call numbers it does not have in it's memory and then imitate my voice to order a new case for itself because it felt the case I bought it was not good enough.

Suckit never did any such thing. everything he did was either motivated by either the fragment memory, or his own. In other words, known programming. If he gave defiance the equivalent of a "ZPM" without any prompting however, that would be the ordering of the new case you speak of here.

That is the type of magical science this show is giving us. Somewhere in those nannites is the ability to reconstitute and reanimate dead tissue. That alone would make it more valuable than anything seen in this show so far. If I was one of those poor souls in Defiance, I would be going around collecting those shards of razor rain to extract the nannites and reprogram them for all sorts of shit.

But nothing says they were hit with other parts of the "brain", that would be like standing in the wake of a woodchipper that was pulping computers and expecting a fragment of a CPU to increase your brain-power.
*something* in those nannites allows it to adapt to fulfil it's primary programming, yes, but there is no evidence it can make it's own "new" directives.

If they would show us the Votan Alliance in Brazil, that would help a whole lot.

I'm sure it would, because right now it is like Earth Alliance, some kind of "EBIL nebulous power" and it is stupid.

GOOD QUESTION. here goes:

1. (show) The aliens and humans would not be allies. They would be at odds with each other and only select few of them would choose to cooperate/cohabit with humans. (game) each alien species would have different abilities, well defined and much different from humans and the other alien species. All would be equally balanced though.
2. (show) All money and fiat currency removed. The ONLY trade would be for Arkfall items and food and other resources. (game) remove all money, keep only Arkfall items. Remove the Store and make all items be gained by finding, stealing or trading.
3. No whorehouse, no Madam or whores.
4. No gangsters, no underworld aliens, no drug dealers or criminals. Just violators of laws and individuals guilty of violence.
5. No alien deejays, no vinyl records, no 1970 vehicles, no Defiance badges being worn, no Dodge Charger.
6. Remove the mine and swap it out for farms and mills which produce stuff.
7. SHOW OTHER TOWNS.
8. Stop showing the shipping between the young teen aliens (does not add to the game or the show).

OMG, there is a lot more but those would be a good start. Those came of the top of my head, but given some thought I could be a lot more lengthy about some changes.

OK, let me counterpoint.
1: If they are not allies, or at least potential allies, you wipe out the reason for Defiance as a town to exist. It would work, but you would turn it into a Autobot V Decepticon action-fest.
2: Why remove money, they have working governments, even if Defiance stands apart from them.
3-5, BLAH "I don't like them because they offend my sensibilities" Who gives a toss about your sensibilities, and better question, why should they? (or mine for that matter)
6: I can sorta dig that, but they actually show windmills all the time. As to food, yep, you got me there, that's a real flaw.
7: I am sure they will, but you need a base to work from, yes?
8: It adds to cultural understanding, which means stuff all in the game, but adds to the mythos of the show. If you don't care about the different cultures however, for sure, it makes a shithouse B story.
--- merged: Jun 11, 2013 at 10:17 PM ---

9. Stop giving us pointless, poorly written sex scenes.

9: No argument, if you have sex, make it mean something (like the shared secret in that ep) if not, leave the sex out.

 

[ParagonPie]

The issue of sex on screen is a slightly complicated issue. Just like violence if its thrown in there then it is gratuitous, or filling some sort of quota/checklist.

Sex scenes in my opinion have to be earned or established within the world they currently reside. I don't mind idea of a whore house, since in a post apocalyptic environment sex is actually a good past time (either through boredom or stress relief), however it should just be an activity that is controlled (compulsory contraceptives). They live in an environment in which resources (and assuming food/water supplies) are stretched, so having extra babies would deplete man power and put a strain on said resources. So if the (local or central) governments issued a limit on how many children could be born within a town, which would raise some (potentially) good drama, liberties of the individual being sacrificed for the whole (considering these people came from our class of society, it wouldn't be something so easy to give up).

The money issue is another thing, we've got multiple alien species with different cultures and technologies, so establishing a standard economy would be very difficult (since values of items would differ from species to species). Depending on long its been since 'the fall' there may have been time to set up a new economy, however they could easily have other towns outside of this still using the barter system of exchange (for example the central government's power only reaches so far). Again potential conflict there, expansion and reestablishment of a world/country wide economy.

Also since these people are still using guns and stuff, who is making all the rounds? Or are they just using left over stockpiles that would easily be outdated and wouldn't function (thus jamming the weapon)?

Yes am I being Captain Hindsight, I can't tally here much longer, others need my help! Whoosh!

 

[Bluce Ree]

9. Stop giving us pointless, poorly written sex scenes.

That about sums it up.
--- merged: Jun 12, 2013 at 8:20 AM ---

2: Why remove money, they have working governments, even if Defiance stands apart from them.

What is the money based on or backed by? Gold? The governor's smile and white teeth?

In ancient times, gold and silver were used as trade currency. Defiance is set in a post-apocalyptic society. Paper money would have as much value as money you draw on paper using your kids' crayons with a big smiley face on it. The governments we see are provisional, formed locally, hardly the stuff to back a currency and, even if they did, the currency would have no value outside the scope of the ruling government.
--- merged: Jun 12, 2013 at 8:26 AM ---

The issue of sex on screen is a slightly complicated issue. Just like violence if its thrown in there then it is gratuitous, or filling some sort of quota/checklist.

Sex scenes in my opinion have to be earned or established within the world they currently reside. I don't mind idea of a whore house, since in a post apocalyptic environment sex is actually a good past time (either through boredom or stress relief), however it should just be an activity that is controlled (compulsory contraceptives). They live in an environment in which resources (and assuming food/water supplies) are stretched, so having extra babies would deplete man power and put a strain on said resources. So if the (local or central) governments issued a limit on how many children could be born within a town, which would raise some (potentially) good drama, liberties of the individual being sacrificed for the whole (considering these people came from our class of society, it wouldn't be something so easy to give up).

The money issue is another thing, we've got multiple alien species with different cultures and technologies, so establishing a standard economy would be very difficult (since values of items would differ from species to species). Depending on long its been since 'the fall' there may have been time to set up a new economy, however they could easily have other towns outside of this still using the barter system of exchange (for example the central government's power only reaches so far). Again potential conflict there, expansion and reestablishment of a world/country wide economy.

Also since these people are still using guns and stuff, who is making all the rounds? Or are they just using left over stockpiles that would easily be outdated and wouldn't function (thus jamming the weapon)?

Yes am I being Captain Hindsight, I can't tally here much longer, others need my help! Whoosh!

2035 to 2046 - about 11 years.

You know, we can barely get our shit together today and we have long established economies and globally traded currencies. A broken down, post-apocalyptic society creating a new economy in 11 years complete with currencies is utter bullshit.

Bush destroyed the US economy in 8 years and we're still in a shambles trying to recover from it 6 years later and they want us to believe the Earth survived an alien invasion and near-destruction of the species yet we rebuilt a working economy with currencies in 11 years? Just LOL!

 

[shavedape]

What is the money based on or backed by? Gold? The governor's smile and white teeth?

In ancient times, gold and silver were used as trade currency. Defiance is set in a post-apocalyptic society. Paper money would have as much value as money you draw on paper using your kids' crayons with a big smiley face on it. The governments we see are provisional, formed locally, hardly the stuff to back a currency and, even if they did, the currency would have no value outside the scope of the ruling government.

You know, we can barely get our shit together today and we have long established economies and globally traded currencies. A broken down, post-apocalyptic society creating a new economy in 11 years complete with currencies is utter bullshit.

Bush destroyed the US economy in 8 years and we're still in a shambles trying to recover from it 6 years later and they want us to believe the Earth survived an alien invasion and near-destruction of the species yet we rebuilt a working economy with currencies in 11 years? Just LOL!

The currency nonsense in this show really drives me up the wall. It's so egregiously stupid and insulting to the intellect that I am at a loss for words.

 

[ParagonPie]

2035 to 2046 - about 11 years.

You know, we can barely get our shit together today and we have long established economies and globally traded currencies. A broken down, post-apocalyptic society creating a new economy in 11 years complete with currencies is utter bullshit.

Bush destroyed the US economy in 8 years and we're still in a shambles trying to recover from it 6 years later and they want us to believe the Earth survived an alien invasion and near-destruction of the species yet we rebuilt a working economy with currencies in 11 years? Just LOL!

Ah I didn't know it was that not long ago. Whoopsi, some reason I had fallout universe in my head so I was thinking more along the lines of 20-30 years for some odd reason. That and I od'd on pringles earlier. So yeah they would have a multi-tiered barter system in place than hard/paper currency (value of the item in question fluctuates between town to town due to need of the town) which would be nice since they were driving around a lot before.

 

[Bluce Ree]

Ah I didn't know it was that not long ago. Whoopsi, some reason I had fallout universe in my head so I was thinking more along the lines of 20-30 years for some odd reason. That and I od'd on pringles earlier. So yeah they would have a multi-tiered barter system in place than hard/paper currency (value of the item in question fluctuates between town to town due to need of the town) which would be nice since they were driving around a lot before.

I'm seeing a lot of great suggestions in this thread to improve this show. Maybe we should write our own show. We've already got a top CGI guy who could make it happen and blow away anything that's on TV today (OMNI: See? Another ego stroke for you, buddy. That's four now. ).

 

[Gatefan1976]

What is the money based on or backed by? Gold? The governor's smile and white teeth?

In ancient times, gold and silver were used as trade currency. Defiance is set in a post-apocalyptic society. Paper money would have as much value as money you draw on paper using your kids' crayons with a big smiley face on it. The governments we see are provisional, formed locally, hardly the stuff to back a currency and, even if they did, the currency would have no value outside the scope of the ruling government.

The money seems to be a Earth Alliance thing, which seems to be a rather large government if it can dictate who gets what with things such as the railway system they want for defiance. Why they don't use more barter in the show, you got me there, they should as they are a semi-autonomous city. Quite frankly, I think the whole money issue has more to do with the game than the show itself. Would you prefer they used gold pieces instead dude?

 

[Overmind One]

The money seems to be a Earth Alliance thing, which seems to be a rather large government if it can dictate who gets what with things such as the railway system they want for defiance. Why they don't use more barter in the show, you got me there, they should as they are a semi-autonomous city. Quite frankly, I think the whole money issue has more to do with the game than the show itself. Would you prefer they used gold pieces instead dude?

I would, yes. The idea that they are using fiat currency (bills) is ridiculous.

 

[Gatefan1976]

I would, yes. The idea that they are using fiat currency (bills) is ridiculous.

Here is the problem with that, how are you going to safely move thousands of these things around? Even back in "Ye olde tymes" we used promisory notes (which is probably the beginning of fiat currency) rather than cart large sums around. For small transactions, sure using coins or pure barter makes far more sense.

 

[Tripler]

That would be an improvement!

 

[Bluce Ree]

Here is the problem with that, how are you going to safely move thousands of these things around? Even back in "Ye olde tymes" we used promisory notes (which is probably the beginning of fiat currency) rather than cart large sums around. For small transactions, sure using coins or pure barter makes far more sense.

Currency is useless to you if merchants refuse to accept it. I am at a complete loss as to how a broken down society in shambles can possibly sustain any form of viable currency.


Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Overmind One]

Cancellation Fly?

 

[Gatefan1976]

Currency is useless to you if merchants refuse to accept it.

Yup.

I am at a complete loss as to how a broken down society in shambles can possibly sustain any form of viable currency.

Is it that "broken down" though? I dunno because it is not shown that clearly in the show (which is stupid). I don't think it is as wild as "Mad Max" though.

 

[Overmind One]

Here is the problem with that, how are you going to safely move thousands of these things around? Even back in "Ye olde tymes" we used promisory notes (which is probably the beginning of fiat currency) rather than cart large sums around. For small transactions, sure using coins or pure barter makes far more sense.

The age of fiat currency started with Richard Nixon in 1972...yep. Never before was paper currency (or any currency) backed by nothing but air. US notes were backed by gold, then by silver, then in 1972, Nixon removed the gold standard making the bills essentially worthless. ALL of the world's currency is backed by nothing but debt. Essentially an IOU. This is why it must collapse eventually. Before, currency could be "cashed in" for something real. But today, most of the trillions in debt could not be cashed in for anything real. There is no need (or infrastructure) to allow fiat currency to exist in Defiance or anywhere else. The value systems have changed because of the terraforming and the arkfalls. Gold might be worthless in their world...perhaps it is now a rare crystal which has value...or an ArkBrain or perhaps certain metals. There in no intrinsic value attached to money.

The use of money in Defiance makes me angry as hell, just like it did in Terra Nova.

 

[Joelist]

Yup.

Is it that "broken down" though? I dunno because it is not shown that clearly in the show (which is stupid). I don't think it is as wild as "Mad Max" though.

Valid point.

The real issue is that they have not explained the backstory basically at all. 9 episodes in and we know only a little more about the backstory than we did at the premiere.

Remember when I had to go search the internet and read wikis in order to get enough backstory to understand the premiere? We're still suffering the after effects of this incredibly boneheaded decision by the writers. The lack of backstory is creeping into everything and makes things that may with fuller backstory be reasonable seem silly. Like money.

If civilization is truly gone and in ruins then barter would likely be the means of trade. If however there are areas with civilization then money is not unfeasible - it is in all likelihood banknotes and not fiat currency. All you need for banknotes is a trustable bank and for that bank to have things of value to issue the banknotes as representing. We have had mentioned at least two national entities so far (Earth Republic, Votan Collective) and have seen Earth Republic forces.

As to elapsed time, Arkfall was 16 years before the time of the show (and the wars ended the same year) and the aliens arrived 17 years before that according to the Defiance wiki. Assuming those are on base dates that is sufficient time for rebuilding to have started and be underway.

Again this all goes back to how they royally screwed up the pilot. It should have started further in the past, included Arkfall and explained the state of the world. It then could have ended with Irisa being found and adopted by the lawkeeper and shown the Defiant Ones in action. Then in episode 2 bring them to Defiance and keep on explaining the world - introduce Earth Republic and Votan Collective and explain them. I suspect the show would not have lost the viewership it did with better exposition in the story.

 

[YJ02]

Ill stand by that definition of the show too, I guess. I still love hating this show less than hating Stargate Universe. We at least have actual crowds of people, cool post-apocalyptic shit in the background and some glowing tech an' shyt. But the story still has to carry this thing and there isnt one. They are not fighting an invasion force, they are not trying to get somewhere, and they are not really trying to build. They are all supporting the "status quo" of keeping things basically the same. I do not like the value systems portrayed in this show at all, which fuels my negative view of it. Money? Whores? Gangsters and drug dealers? Nah...I dont like those things in real life either.





YES! It has . It is adaptive because it took what it had available (Suckit) and used his body to create the device (from available materials) and improvised the entire way to the top of that arch. It even created colorful dialogue for Suckoff and made him dress in the stupid outfit. The Ark Brain itself is an adaptive AI. You dont believe that nannites were preprogrammed to fight hand to hand combat in a reanimated body, and to climb the Defiance arch, do you?



Cmon man....its one thing to have a phone capable of doing amazing things (I have one), its another for the phone to call numbers it does not have in it's memory and then imitate my voice to order a new case for itself because it felt the case I bought it was not good enough. That is the type of magical science this show is giving us. Somewhere in those nannites is the ability to reconstitute and reanimate dead tissue. That alone would make it more valuable than anything seen in this show so far. If I was one of those poor souls in Defiance, I would be going around collecting those shards of razor rain to extract the nannites and reprogram them for all sorts of shit.




If they would show us the Votan Alliance in Brazil, that would help a whole lot.



GOOD QUESTION. here goes:

1. (show) The aliens and humans would not be allies. They would be at odds with each other and only select few of them would choose to cooperate/cohabit with humans. (game) each alien species would have different abilities, well defined and much different from humans and the other alien species. All would be equally balanced though.
2. (show) All money and fiat currency removed. The ONLY trade would be for Arkfall items and food and other resources. (game) remove all money, keep only Arkfall items. Remove the Store and make all items be gained by finding, stealing or trading.
3. No whorehouse, no Madam or whores.
4. No gangsters, no underworld aliens, no drug dealers or criminals. Just violators of laws and individuals guilty of violence.
5. No alien deejays, no vinyl records, no 1970 vehicles, no Defiance badges being worn, no Dodge Charger.
6. Remove the mine and swap it out for farms and mills which produce stuff.
7. SHOW OTHER TOWNS.
8. Stop showing the shipping between the young teen aliens (does not add to the game or the show).

OMG, there is a lot more but those would be a good start. Those came of the top of my head, but given some thought I could be a lot more lengthy about some changes.

The DODGE CHARGER must remain; it has become integral to the show since DODGE is about one of the only "big" sponsors of it--oh and AXE too.

others-

what race of votans is it that seem to be serving as housemaids/cooks? Last show "Mr I own the mine" had a female creature with a beard. So if we get a "jiggy" scene with a human and one of them-is it bestiality?

why oh why do we have the lesbian sex on top of all the other sex? We all get it-we know that our world has lesbians and gay males. We also know that there are straight couples who get each other off with foot sex-is DEFIANCE going to incorporate that as well (I say do it with the chewbacca looking alien and the bio man--big fun!)?

The "astronaut's wife". The chances of some, till this ep, random old lady surviving the death of her husband, the arrival of the aliens, the subsequent wars and terra forming (did you see? Alabama didn't get "formed"?) are just as obscure as the chances of 1960's Lincoln continentals, vinyl records and craftsman style homes surviving to this time frame. In the midst of all of the other fiction here, I found this scene (their reunion) totally unbelievable; the last lump of shit on an already huge fetid pile that causes it to finally tumble over kind of unbelievable.

It would of been better--not hard to do in this show--if the old lady wife was someone in DEFIANCE-like the retired mayor for ex. We know she is up to no good of some type. Her being the wife could have been used to show that she is in cahoots with the Votan from the start.

 

[Gatefan1976]

The DODGE CHARGER must remain; it has become integral to the show since DODGE is about one of the only "big" sponsors of it--oh and AXE too.

others-

what race of votans is it that seem to be serving as housemaids/cooks? Last show "Mr I own the mine" had a female creature with a beard. So if we get a "jiggy" scene with a human and one of them-is it bestiality?

why oh why do we have the lesbian sex on top of all the other sex? We all get it-we know that our world has lesbians and gay males. We also know that there are straight couples who get each other off with foot sex-is DEFIANCE going to incorporate that as well (I say do it with the chewbacca looking alien and the bio man--big fun!)?

The "astronaut's wife". The chances of some, till this ep, random old lady surviving the death of her husband, the arrival of the aliens, the subsequent wars and terra forming (did you see? Alabama didn't get "formed"?) are just as obscure as the chances of 1960's Lincoln continentals, vinyl records and craftsman style homes surviving to this time frame. In the midst of all of the other fiction here, I found this scene (their reunion) totally unbelievable; the last lump of shit on an already huge fetid pile that causes it to finally tumble over kind of unbelievable.

It would of been better--not hard to do in this show--if the old lady wife was someone in DEFIANCE-like the retired mayor for ex. We know she is up to no good of some type. Her being the wife could have been used to show that she is in cahoots with the Votan from the start.

Don't feel the need to hang back Yong, tell us what you *really* think!!

 

[Bluce Ree]

Yup.

Is it that "broken down" though? I dunno because it is not shown that clearly in the show (which is stupid). I don't think it is as wild as "Mad Max" though.

It's not Mad Max but it doesn't change the facts. They survived an alien invasion and an alien war. The earth was devastated and underwent partial alien "terraforming". This is a post-apocalyptic society by definition. When Germany was defeated, its currency was worthless and that was just one country. Defecation takes place after a global wipeout and near planetary annihilation.

The old governments are gone. The global economy is gone. The old borders are gone. Nations as they were are gone. There's nothing left of the old society and the old infrastructure.


Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Gatefan1976]

It's not Mad Max but it doesn't change the facts. They survived an alien invasion and an alien war. The earth was devastated and underwent partial alien "terraforming". This is a post-apocalyptic society by definition.

For sure, I am not going to try to defend stuff that makes no internal sense within the show (or game that I am aware of), I will provide............ "options" that I can see, but no more.

When Germany was defeated, its currency was worthless and that was just one country. Defecation takes place after a global wipeout and near planetary annihilation.

But we don't know the extent of the damage *for sure*, I guess it is one way to avoid the problem of plot holes, have no plot

old governments are gone. The global economy is gone. The old borders are gone. Nations as they were are gone. There's nothing left of the old society and the old infrastructure.

The infrastructure may be gone, but the idea's won't be. If you wiped out chunks of the population, I *bet* that we would have electricity up and running in fairly short order because enough people would survive *on pure statistics* to get local grids running again. Money would be harder, sure, but as a concept?

 

[Bluce Ree]

The infrastructure may be gone, but the idea's won't be. If you wiped out chunks of the population, I *bet* that we would have electricity up and running in fairly short order because enough people would survive *on pure statistics* to get local grids running again. Money would be harder, sure, but as a concept?

You're describing something more along the lines of Independence Day. According to the Defiance Wiki, the world as we know it is no more. It was destroyed, the governments are gone and replaced with something new and provisional called Earth Republic. The current administrative borders (states, provinces, countries, etc) are also gone. Not only are they almost starting from scratch but there are several new alien species in the mix.

Dude, currency and economy isn't just about "ideas". What you're suggesting is that, just because people knew about money, hence "the ideas", somehow money will just spring up out of nowhere and all is well. If the infrastructure to maintain an economy and currency is gone, it needs to be rebuilt. I don't know how many more ways I can put this to be any clearer. When I say infrastructure related to economy, I'm not talking about roads and hospitals.

Money doesn't work as a standalone concept. You can't just declare X is now money and hope for the best. Something needs to give it value, it needs a baseline, it needs a centralized financial infrastructure. Otherwise, your 100 Quatloo buys you bread in one town and a car in another and nothing really makes any sense.