So how was your day?

[OMNI]

True dat but we lead the pack. Haven't heard? America is always #1 no matter what the category.

how could i forget

 

[OMNI]

This is all true, but I still love my country and all the men and women that serve in it. Both the Military and the Firefighters/Police.

very blind of you...

people that love and think those people just BC they "serve" are infallable bug the hell out of me... police especially.. as imo they are just as bad as the criminals but they have a "badge" so they have the "right" to do whatever the hell they like..

 

[Bluce Ree]

This is all true, but I still love my country and all the men and women that serve in it. Both the Military and the Firefighters/Police.

We become great when we can laugh at ourselves and recognize our faults.

 

[Bluce Ree]

very blind of you...

people that love and think those people just BC they "serve" are infallable bug the hell out of me... police especially.. as imo they are just as bad as the criminals but they have a "badge" so they have the "right" to do whatever the hell they like..

Some cops, yes. I've met cops, especially down here, that are really pleasant and respectful. One cop pulled me over for running a stop sign buried behind bushes. He saw I had an Italian name on my license and started chatting me up in Italian, which I thought was cool. I still got the ticket but he shook my hand and wished me well after handing it to me.

 

[Graybrew1]

We become great when we can laugh at ourselves and recognize our faults.

Agreed, I have no problem pointing out our many faults, but I would not want it to be misconstrued as not still being proud to be an American. I also expect and respect all of our friends from around the globe and assume they feel the same about their countries.

 

[Graybrew1]

very blind of you...

people that love and think those people just BC they "serve" are infallable bug the hell out of me... police especially.. as imo they are just as bad as the criminals but they have a "badge" so they have the "right" to do whatever the hell they like..

I don't assume they are perfect OMNI. But they DO put their lives on the line everyday.

THAT alone deserves respect in my book. I never said they were infallable. I have several friends that are police and they are neither dirty or think they have a right to do what they want. They are highly regulated nowadays by the IA. My Dad, Big brother and now my nephew are/were Marines. I am a bit Subjective I admit it. But I can't apologize for that. That is my heart and my opinion.

 

[Bluce Ree]

Agreed, I have no problem pointing out our many faults, but I would not want it to be misconstrued as not still being proud to be an American. I also expect and respect all of our friends from around the globe and assume they feel the same about their countries.

That brings my back to the point I made earlier. Pointing out our faults isn't be a sign of descent or disrespect nor should you be afraid of being perceived as unpatriotic.

 

[Graybrew1]

That brings my back to the point I made earlier. Pointing out our faults isn't be a sign of descent or disrespect nor should you be afraid of being perceived as unpatriotic.

In this type of setting, I would be afraid as a Forum, where people can pick and choose what parts they read, to be taken out of context. This is why I felt a clarification would be acceptable.

No fault of yours or anyone else's ...I understood none of you meant that. But we can't assume everybody else would.
When dealing with the public I have learned it is better .................NEVER to assume.

 

[Bluce Ree]

In this type of setting, I would be afraid as a Forum, where people can pick and choose what parts they read, to be taken out of context. This is why I felt a clarification would be acceptable.

No fault of yours or anyone else's ...I understood none of you meant that. But we can't assume everybody else would.
When dealing with the public I have learned it is better .................NEVER to assume.

Yeah, but have you noticed that, prior to 9/11, this paranoia of being seen as unpatriotic or a traitor was almost non-existent (except, maybe, during the cold war)? That's my point. It shouldn't be necessary and that disappoints me about American society. We should know better.

 

[Graybrew1]

Yeah, but have you noticed that, prior to 9/11, this paranoia of being seen as unpatriotic or a traitor was almost non-existent (except, maybe, during the cold war)? That's my point. It shouldn't be necessary and that disappoints me about American society. We should know better.

I can't speak for the world, but I would have felt that way at any time. Before or After 9/11. If you are going to point out flaws in ANY country I think a disclaimer is acceptable. The one thing that 9/11 did do, IMO, is raise the emotion level.

I was in Mexico the week before 9/11 and having a very interesting debate with somebody from UK about their countries flaws versus mine and we both made a point to say to each other that we still loved our countries.

Think about this as more human nature. If you love your Mom/Dad/Spouse/Kid whatnot but they drive you nuts. Don't you make sure to tell whoever you are venting to that you still love this person? I think most would.

The great thing about the US is that you have the right to spit on the flag and burn it. Those people that risked their lives to give that too you, should be the first to acknowledge that fact. They don't have to be happy about it, but they do have to accept it.

 

[Bluce Ree]

I can't speak for the world, but I would have felt that way at any time. Before or After 9/11. If you are going to point out flaws in ANY country I think a disclaimer is acceptable. The one thing that 9/11 did do, IMO, is raise the emotion level.

I was in Mexico the week before 9/11 and having a very interesting debate with somebody from UK about their countries flaws versus mine and we both made a point to say to each other that we still loved our countries.

Think about this as more human nature. If you love your Mom/Dad/Spouse/Kid whatnot but they drive you nuts. Don't you make sure to tell whoever you are venting to that you still love this person? I think most would.

The great thing about the US is that you have the right to spit on the flag and burn it. Those people that risked their lives to give that too you, should be the first to acknowledge that fact. They don't have to be happy about it, but they do have to accept it.

The bad thing about post 9/11 America is that exercising that right today puts you on a watch list.

 

[Graybrew1]

The bad thing about post 9/11 America is that exercising that right today puts you on a watch list.

That is sad.

But some do wish us all to rot and die. I don't like the delays and scans and lines at security for flying either. It is something that must be done to protect us from the possibility of another plane high-jacking. I still believe that SAFETY must come first. So, where do you draw those lines?

What rights would you choose to give up for the guarantee of your loved one's lives? None, Some or any? That is a decision, I would not want to have to make. I fault this country's politicians for multitudes and still feel 90 percent of them are innately corrupt, but I don't have a problem with putting somebody on a watch list, if there is even a chance in a million that it will prevent injury to my kid.

 

[Bluce Ree]

That is sad.

But some do wish us all to rot and die. I don't like the delays and scans and lines at security for flying either. It is something that must be done to protect us from the possibility of another plane high-jacking. I still believe that SAFETY must come first. So, where do you draw those lines?

The TSA's current security measures are designed to frustrate and fear monger. They are everything but about protecting people. Liquids in ziplock bags? Please.

Israel, a country surrounded by hostile nations and targeted by terrorists on a daily basis, is able to get you from the curb to the gate in 30 minutes flat. They have turned airport security into a science. They start the screening process at the curb, with specially trained people who observe and interact with you, and it continues all the way to your gate. How many hijacks and/or bombings have occurred from Israel's international airport? Try zero.

London Heathrow airport, once targeted by IRA terrorists and still subject to hostility, gets you from the curb to the gate in under 45 minutes.

USA does not have anything even remotely resembling the threats Israel is subject to, where terrorism is a daily occurrence. Instead of taking example from security measures that actually work, they decide to do as America always does, follow the advice of in-bred hacks running the TSA and implement ass-backward and utterly useless security measures. The kicker is encountering TSA people with an IQ of 35, who barely have sufficient brain function to think without shutting down their vital organs, running *your* security. Fear mongering is now a way of life. Airports are always at threat level orange and never budge.

What rights would you choose to give up for the guarantee of your loved one's lives? None, Some or any? That is a decision, I would not want to have to make. I fault this country's politicians for multitudes and still feel 90 percent of them are innately corrupt, but I don't have a problem with putting somebody on a watch list, if there is even a chance in a million that it will prevent injury to my kid.

None and you shouldn't have to. The fact that you can be detained without cause under the Patriot Act is Orwellian. Illegal search and seizure is now legal without a warrant under the Patriot Act. People get put on watch lists for absolutely no reason. There are procedures to follow and these procedures are meant to keep a high level of integrity and accuracy when dealing with law enforcement matters.

Without constitutional rights, we erode the society we're trying to protect. Then what's the point?

 

[Graybrew1]

The TSA is not purposely trying to frustrate and fear monger they are just understaffed and under-trained. The Us is not adept at dealing with these types of threats. Both UK and Isreal has been dealing with this for decades upon decades. The liquid in the ziplock bags is to prevent people from making homemade bombs and blowing up the plane. In this day and age of the internet, anybody can make a bomb if they want to. It is really not that big of a bother to me to remember to put my liquids in my checked bag. They allow you to bring a couple of essentials in a see through container to make sure it is not explosives. You are aware that several people have actually been caught doing just that. Get mad at the twit that put the bomb in his shoe, fact not fiction, and not the TSA that make you take your shoes off.

I have flown a fair amount of time out of PHI, BWI and JFK after 9/11. I have had layovers and left security, back when I smoked in cities all over the US. In general it takes about 20-40 min to get through security. It is really not that difficult. Prepare your stuff correctly in advice. Take off your shoes, wear socks if you don't like to touch the floor, and take out your laptop, take off your jacket. Stick your stuff in the buckets and walk through.
The only major delay I ever encountered was in Mexico City. They pulled me to the special room because of the metal in a marionette puppet. I did not mind it there either. They cared about safety too, and this were not the TSA.

I guess, this other point is going to be pure opinion. I can't really think of a way to debate it. I will try.

I would do anything, and I mean anything. I would lay down my own life to protect my child. This is a time of war, things change as such. I stand by my beliefs in this matter. I agree in a perfect world you could have guaranteed safety and not lose any rights, but this is not a perfect world. Dig deep enough, and most people around the globe have faults in their government too. I say once again, safety comes first. You would not enjoy having those rights so much if you were dead because the government did not have the ability to stop one of the countless operatives and factions that still exist and have tried to kill many more Americans.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Its raining here..................

 

[OMNI]

Its raining here..................

same.. the lefts overs of irene are hanging out here..

 

[Gatefan1976]

same.. the lefts overs of irene are hanging out here..

Stop making it so easy on an open board bud

 

[Bluce Ree]

The TSA is not purposely trying to frustrate and fear monger they are just understaffed and under-trained.

The TSA doesn't know their ass from their elbow. They employ dropouts with high-school equivalencies. The US isn't stupid. They have agencies like the NSA, the FBI, the CIA that have been highly successful and are relatively organized since their inception. Why is TSA such an exception?

The next time you see eight TSA agents hanging around the x-ray machine cracking jokes, you'll understand why I say they are *not* understaffed.

The Us is not adept at dealing with these types of threats. Both UK and Isreal has been dealing with this for decades upon decades.

If the USA can't put together a comprehensive security plan for their own airports, then were in a lot more trouble than we think and it proves that the country is being led by mentally challenged bureaucrats. Israel and UK been dealing with it for decades. So, look to them for advice on how to implement efficient and effective security and stop putting ignorant people in charge of vital government agencies as we do now.

The liquid in the ziplock bags is to prevent people from making homemade bombs and blowing up the plane.

Grey, you know I love ya but that's just plain silly and more proof that the fear mongering has managed to convince you of the bullshit they push.

Watch this:
- board plane with liquids in ziplock
- sit in my seat
- pull liquids out of ziplock
- wave goodbye out window
- mix & kaboom

Oh, look! I did the absolute impossible! I broke the impregnable sandwich-bag security!

There's no pussyfooting around it. It is a plainly stupid and useless measure.

In this day and age of the internet, anybody can make a bomb if they want to. It is really not that big of a bother to me to remember to put my liquids in my checked bag. They allow you to bring a couple of essentials in a see through container to make sure it is not explosives. You are aware that several people have actually been caught doing just that. Get mad at the twit that put the bomb in his shoe, fact not fiction, and not the TSA that make you take your shoes off.

If Israel can keep bombs off their planes, it would be wise to consult the Israelis on airport security.

I have flown a fair amount of time out of PHI, BWI and JFK after 9/11. I have had layovers and left security, back when I smoked in cities all over the US. In general it takes about 20-40 min to get through security. It is really not that difficult. Prepare your stuff correctly in advice. Take off your shoes, wear socks if you don't like to touch the floor, and take out your laptop, take off your jacket. Stick your stuff in the buckets and walk through.
The only major delay I ever encountered was in Mexico City. They pulled me to the special room because of the metal in a marionette puppet. I did not mind it there either. They cared about safety too, and this were not the TSA.

I guess, this other point is going to be pure opinion. I can't really think of a way to debate it. I will try.

I would do anything, and I mean anything. I would lay down my own life to protect my child.

That's admirable and would expect nothing less. However, if you're referring to giving up constitutional rights, then you've allowed the terrorists to win and are allowing your country to move towards a policed state.

This is a time of war, things change as such.

Another misconception. Was the US at war with Timothy Mcveigh, too?

I stand by my beliefs in this matter. I agree in a perfect world you could have guaranteed safety and not lose any rights, but this is not a perfect world.

Yet Israel gets it and can implement smooth, efficient security without stripping you of your dignity and patience. You've allowed the bullshit started by the Bush cronies to clutter your judgment. The US is the most advanced country on the planet when it comes to military and conventional technology, law enforcement and intelligence but, somehow, we're ass-backwards with airport security.

Dig deep enough, and most people around the globe have faults in their government too. I say once again, safety comes first. You would not enjoy having those rights so much if you were dead because the government did not have the ability to stop one of the countless operatives and factions that still exist and have tried to kill many more Americans.

Do you have an idea of how many post 9/11 terrorist plots have been stopped by unlawful search, detention without cause and no-warrant wire taps? Again, by allowing our constitutional rights to be eroded in this manner, we let the terrorists win.

 

[shavedape]

"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."

Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

Can anyone say that this isn't a truism in today's world?

 

[Bluce Ree]

Can anyone say that this isn't a truism in today's world?

Truer words are not often spoken as eloquently.