DEFIANCE game and TV show - sink or swim?

[Backstep]

Oh, and the Facebook followers suddenly jump by thousands. . The buzzards will start circling about the time when the Save Defiance group is formed around the beginning of Season 2 when they will be considering cancelling it. .

View attachment 28230

In Defiance looking for a picnic basket?

 

[Overmind One]

In Defiance looking for a picnic basket?

I should re-do that smiley, eh? If I do, your image will be automatically replaced with the new one. Need to make it more generic.

 

[Backstep]

Explains why he does not come here anymore.

All that old stuff is water under the bridge for me. Why don't you try and contact him for his take on Defiance?

 

[Overmind One]

I have to say, I absolutely LOVE the Syfy Rewind service they have started. Yes, it has a couple of commercials but it is so cool to watch a current show (the next day) and not have to download it. Just think, if they collected those metrics, they would have a good idea who watches it online. But you dont have to register to watch so they are missing that opportunity. I am getting ready to watch it again. Why? I want to see if I can piece together any sort of story here. I mean, each episode centers around getting something and taking it somewhere else. The game is actually updated every week (I have discovered). But they only make new weapons or areas available and are not grin-inducing. Im just about done trying to play the game along with the show. I dont like the show, so the game seems pointless. If you hated Stargate Universe with a passion, and then were offered a chance to appear in the actual series as an extra...would you? It feels like that.
--- merged: May 15, 2013 at 10:41 PM ---

All that old stuff is water under the bridge for me. Why don't you try and contact him for his take on Defiance?

I could, I guess...

 

[Joelist]

I like the post Overmind quoted from SyFy forums - it is on the mark. If you don't have a grounding in the Defiance universe either from the game or from internet research the show is indeed incomprehensible. That plus the overall poor writing (like Irisa's out of the blue sex scene that had no relationship setup whatsoever, the total lack of any context for Datak Marr's apparent control of the community of aliens of his Votan race and others) is in my opinion chiefly responsible for the ratings trajectory.

To me this show definitely comes off as a Firefly wannabe. However there are several issues with it that suggest the writers saw the appeal of Firefly and understood the only reason it ran one season was network ignorance in scheduling but totally failed to understand WHY it had appeal.

First, Defiance probably needed a different backdrop and setting to work. Trying to have a credible explanation for a mish-mash human alien civilization on near future earth that has the necessary "frontier" atmosphere for their action ambitions is just too difficult. They have apparently chosen to just not try. Lesson not learned from Firefly - your setting and backstory need to at least be remotely plausible otherwise it becomes hard for viewers to willingly suspend disbelief.

Second, it is one thing to want a show to have a sense of mystery and not tell the viewers everything. It is another to basically tell the viewer nothing and leave it all to them to figure out. Usually when confronted with a story that has zero context and background viewers finally just check out and go elsewhere. Lesson not learned from Firefly - Tell your viewers at minimum enough about the backstory and premise to put the characters and action in some context.

Right in the Firefly premiere (had the frelling network shown it in the proper order) Whedon fed the viewer a good deal of information and did it so you don't really feel like you're being schooled. He gave the viewer enough information to put the action and characters into context and that meant future episodes had a solid background to build off of.

Third, character relationships need to be at least somewhat believable. Many of those in Defiance simply are not. Irisa and the deputy is an example of an unbelievable relationship (assuming it is a relationship) because it simply happens out of the blue with no setup at all. Really so is Nolan and the town Madam. Lesson not learned from Firefly - the romantic big moment should be the "payoff" to the arcs of the characters involved or it becomes meaningless. Examples in Firefly include Mal and Inara, Simon and Kaylee and even Wash and Zoe - they start the show off married already but the relationship eveolved and deepened in even just the small episode run they had and that made the impact on Zoe of Wash's death in Serenity have real impact.

I could keep going but think that is enough for now to show how badly the writers have hurt Defiance.

 

[Overmind One]

I like the post Overmind quoted from SyFy forums - it is on the mark. If you don't have a grounding in the Defiance universe either from the game or from internet research the show is indeed incomprehensible. That plus the overall poor writing (like Irisa's out of the blue sex scene that had no relationship setup whatsoever, the total lack of any context for Datak Marr's apparent control of the community of aliens of his Votan race and others) is in my opinion chiefly responsible for the ratings trajectory.

To me this show definitely comes off as a Firefly wannabe. However there are several issues with it that suggest the writers saw the appeal of Firefly and understood the only reason it ran one season was network ignorance in scheduling but totally failed to understand WHY it had appeal.

First, Defiance probably needed a different backdrop and setting to work. Trying to have a credible explanation for a mish-mash human alien civilization on near future earth that has the necessary "frontier" atmosphere for their action ambitions is just too difficult. They have apparently chosen to just not try. Lesson not learned from Firefly - your setting and backstory need to at least be remotely plausible otherwise it becomes hard for viewers to willingly suspend disbelief.

Second, it is one thing to want a show to have a sense of mystery and not tell the viewers everything. It is another to basically tell the viewer nothing and leave it all to them to figure out. Usually when confronted with a story that has zero context and background viewers finally just check out and go elsewhere. Lesson not learned from Firefly - Tell your viewers at minimum enough about the backstory and premise to put the characters and action in some context.

Right in the Firefly premiere (had the frelling network shown it in the proper order) Whedon fed the viewer a good deal of information and did it so you don't really feel like you're being schooled. He gave the viewer enough information to put the action and characters into context and that meant future episodes had a solid background to build off of.

Third, character relationships need to be at least somewhat believable. Many of those in Defiance simply are not. Irisa and the deputy is an example of an unbelievable relationship (assuming it is a relationship) because it simply happens out of the blue with no setup at all. Really so is Nolan and the town Madam. Lesson not learned from Firefly - the romantic big moment should be the "payoff" to the arcs of the characters involved or it becomes meaningless. Examples in Firefly include Mal and Inara, Simon and Kaylee and even Wash and Zoe - they start the show off married already but the relationship eveolved and deepened in even just the small episode run they had and that made the impact on Zoe of Wash's death in Serenity have real impact.

I could keep going but think that is enough for now to show how badly the writers have hurt Defiance.

Actually, that is from Trion's Defiance forums. Syfy is deleting negative comments on this show like GateWorld used to do. But Trion is not. Everything else you have said is spot on. I also STRONGLY agree with you with regard to this show being a Firefly wannabe. It wants to have the look and feel of Firefly, but be able to have the storylines of a old western, and a culture created with elements from the 1970s and Mayberry...all with rayguns and robots. And explosions.

 

[heisenberg]

It's also worth mentioning that the "overall" ratings for defiance is also on the decline.
Oh and the negativity is also present on imdb too.


More Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt

 

[Overmind One]

I like the post Overmind quoted from SyFy forums - it is on the mark. If you don't have a grounding in the Defiance universe either from the game or from internet research the show is indeed incomprehensible. That plus the overall poor writing (like Irisa's out of the blue sex scene that had no relationship setup whatsoever, the total lack of any context for Datak Marr's apparent control of the community of aliens of his Votan race and others) is in my opinion chiefly responsible for the ratings trajectory.

What is with that anyway? We know it is in place and entrenched, because its like that in the show. But the only way he could get to that point is by continued use of money in Defiance. Most every plotline has to do with money in some form or another. Things of value like Arkfall tech and weapons and especially ammo would be the likely currency. Why is there a street market? Why are there drug dealers and an underworld? These things arise only in a governmental system that makes things hard to get or illegal or puts pressure on it's citizens. Why would drug use be clandestine? Why would people in defiance pay money for it unless the money has value? HOW does it have value?

To me this show definitely comes off as a Firefly wannabe. However there are several issues with it that suggest the writers saw the appeal of Firefly and understood the only reason it ran one season was network ignorance in scheduling but totally failed to understand WHY it had appeal.

They dont get it. Their capacity to understand it seems to be limited.

First, Defiance probably needed a different backdrop and setting to work. Trying to have a credible explanation for a mish-mash human alien civilization on near future earth that has the necessary "frontier" atmosphere for their action ambitions is just too difficult. They have apparently chosen to just not try. Lesson not learned from Firefly - your setting and backstory need to at least be remotely plausible otherwise it becomes hard for viewers to willingly suspend disbelief.

They needed to have the first two episodes concentrate on the whole Ark visits earth thing, the Arkfalls and the war. Instead, they introduce characters and start us in a town of Defiance populated by a bunch of people in costumes and at least one Wookie.

Second, it is one thing to want a show to have a sense of mystery and not tell the viewers everything. It is another to basically tell the viewer nothing and leave it all to them to figure out. Usually when confronted with a story that has zero context and background viewers finally just check out and go elsewhere. Lesson not learned from Firefly - Tell your viewers at minimum enough about the backstory and premise to put the characters and action in some context.

AND, the game is not fleshing that out at all.

Right in the Firefly premiere (had the frelling network shown it in the proper order) Whedon fed the viewer a good deal of information and did it so you don't really feel like you're being schooled. He gave the viewer enough information to put the action and characters into context and that meant future episodes had a solid background to build off of.

Third, character relationships need to be at least somewhat believable. Many of those in Defiance simply are not. Irisa and the deputy is an example of an unbelievable relationship (assuming it is a relationship) because it simply happens out of the blue with no setup at all. Really so is Nolan and the town Madam. Lesson not learned from Firefly - the romantic big moment should be the "payoff" to the arcs of the characters involved or it becomes meaningless. Examples in Firefly include Mal and Inara, Simon and Kaylee and even Wash and Zoe - they start the show off married already but the relationship eveolved and deepened in even just the small episode run they had and that made the impact on Zoe of Wash's death in Serenity have real impact.

I could keep going but think that is enough for now to show how badly the writers have hurt Defiance.

It cant really be fixed. It started beyond the point of no return right at the premiere. They could repair a lot of damage by retro-storytelling. Do a full blown flashback showing scenes from the war, from the homeworlds of the aliens, the event that made them leave their planets, perhaps traveling in space...but then the stuff in the game stalls. Its sorta like this (image from the Incredible Two Headed Transplant):

--- merged: May 16, 2013 at 12:33 AM ---

It's also worth mentioning that the "overall" ratings for defiance is also on the decline.
Oh and the negativity is also present on imdb too.


More Fear, Uncertainty and doubt

It is being hailed as another soap.
--- merged: May 16, 2013 at 12:41 AM ---
This thread is now in the new Defiance Forum, along with the Ratings thread,

 

[Gatefan1976]

Umm, does TBD in the folder title mean "To Be Destroyed"??

Enquiring minds and all that

 

[Overmind One]

Umm, does TBD in the folder title mean "To Be Destroyed"??

Enquiring minds and all that

LOL! Could mean that! But it means To Be Determined

In all honesty, I would not yet describe my reaction to this thing as "hate". Right now it is somewhere between confusion and frustration. It does not have a canon to live up to, but it also has no fanbase except what has been created since when the game was released. So, my dislike for the show does not come from it not living up to a previously established standard except that which allows it to be called science fiction. It fails in that regard IMO. Then there is the writing and the characters, and they fail on that too. But wait, the game is also a fail...so therein lies the frustration. Confusion sets in when I watch the episodes and try to make sense of the stories and what is going on in the episodes. The two arms smugglers, for instance....if they had not been cruising around in that convertible and they had backpacks, it would have improved that scene immensely. This last episode...why did they open with an alien deejay playing "Ride Captain Ride" on a radio station being broadcast in Defiance? People are listening to radios? Did all the iPods and digital music players all get destroyed? If so, how did the turntables survive and what about the needle? These things would not be an issue if they simply did not have that scene in the first place.

 

[Gatefan1976]

LOL! Could mean that! But it means To Be Determined

In all honesty, I would not yet describe my reaction to this thing as "hate". Right now it is somewhere between confusion and frustration. It does not have a canon to live up to, but it also has no fanbase except what has been created since when the game was released. So, my dislike for the show does not come from it not living up to a previously established standard except that which allows it to be called science fiction. It fails in that regard IMO. Then there is the writing and the characters, and they fail on that too. But wait, the game is also a fail...so therein lies the frustration. Confusion sets in when I watch the episodes and try to make sense of the stories and what is going on in the episodes. The two arms smugglers, for instance....if they had not been cruising around in that convertible and they had backpacks, it would have improved that scene immensely. This last episode...why did they open with an alien deejay playing "Ride Captain Ride" on a radio station being broadcast in Defiance? People are listening to radios? Did all the iPods and digital music players all get destroyed? If so, how did the turntables survive and what about the needle? These things would not be an issue if they simply did not have that scene in the first place.

I can't bring myself to "hate" it, or even "mild dislike" it.
Like you said, it is stand alone, so my overall feeling is just a mix of disinterest and apathy, I don't *care* enough to feel about it like I would for Stargate, or Star Trek.
The ONLY reason why I bother to discuss the show at all is because I find the "transmedia" aspect interesting and I think that aspect is very much worth giving a chance. I just think they are doing it with a "busted-ass vehicle"

 

[shavedape]

Its like they did for SGU except less concealed. With SGU, it was concealed that Brad had secured two seasons, but Craig Engler outed him with Brad's long crooked finger of blame was pointed at Syfy. This time, Trion and Syfy are being much less clandestine, announcing a faux "renewal" after only 4 episodes, during a down ratings trend. The same spin from Syfy is there though, calling this show "Syfy's new hit show" and all. These are good times for contract Magicians I would imagine...they could probably make lots more people seriously believe they are doing ACTUAL magic.

Agreed also on MockingbirdGirl. She is among the legions who don't bother looking behind the scenes by way of Trion's Defiance forums. Here is an example:

http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?61953-I-m-I-the-only-one

View attachment 28227

The gamers playing Defiance are not liking this show very much, and from what I gather, the watchers of the show are not playing the game much. All the press spin is not to be trusted at all. Syfy spun the hell out of SGU even when it was already swirling down the toilet. With this one, they arent even trying to hide the decline. There is no fanbase to squee for it, no websites dedicated to it so that negative messages can be censored, and none of the producers have a blog we can go to and make comments or ask questions.

What exactly are they expecting?

Here's my fave quote from the comments section of the link you listed. This guy is a total sheep. He is everything that's wrong with scifi viewership today:

Spruence
I enjoy the game and the show. I am just hoping the show doesn't get cancelled.

What a tool!!!

 

[Overmind One]

Here's my fave quote from the comments section of the link you listed. This guy is a total sheep. He is everything that's wrong with scifi viewership today:

What a tool!!!

That forum is going to be the go-to place for uncensored comments on the show (and here, of course ). Trion is not censoring anything except profanity. Their bread and butter is their Rift game, and they already have been paid by Syfy. The game is not getting much love at all, and there are numerous rants about it on the web. I think that is mostly because the price for this game puts it in the "premium" category with games like Starcraft, Warcraft, Call of Duty, etc. At $60.00 a pop, you expect a game of that caliber. The run-of-the-mill games usually go for like...$39.95. This game is really in the lower range but priced in the premium range. That, and they offer in game money you have to spend ACTUAL money to get (bitch please!). You can earn the in-game money, but it takes hours upon hours to collect.

I wonder if that tool you posted the comment from is somebody who watches the show and does not play the game much? You usually do not find squeeing and fanbois from gamers. Shows are not interactive like a game is. You dont squee for it cause it looks cool. It is either fun or boring.

 

[Gatefan1976]

FYI the game now goes for 40 bucks dude

 

[Overmind One]

FYI the game now goes for 40 bucks dude

LOL... maybe in your world, but in mine it costs $59.95...http://www.defiance.com/en/buy-now/pc/?CAS_REDIR=true

I paid $59.95 for my PC version of the game purchased online directly from Trion.
--- merged: May 16, 2013 at 11:36 AM ---
LMAO! Now they have a "Digital Deluxe" version for only $99.95? SERIOUSLY?

Their marketing guys have these:

 

[shavedape]

Came across this. I don't think anyone has posted it yet as it's fairly new, from May 8th. The author gets a few minor things wrong (like the name of the network) in his "rant" but over all it's good. But the comments section is where it really shines. Check it out:

http://commentaramafilms.blogspot.com/2013/05/why-defiance-sucks.html

Why Defiance Sucks

​

There’s a new show on the Sci-Fi Channel called Defiance. Yawn. Sorry. As I was saying, there’s a new show on the Sci-Fi Channel called Defiance. It sounded like an interesting premise when the ads first appeared for it, but it’s not. It’s missing the one thing that really matters: a story. In fact, this is the real problem with most science fiction shows these days.

And from the comments:

AndrewPrice said...
LL, I think that Falling Skies is an excellent comparison. Both shows promised to be something new and different and "more" than we were used to... and both ended up tired and cliched from the first frame and only went downhill from there.

More at the link. Don't miss the comments section as some people make some really good points (one guy makes a prediction that they'll probably have a zany Christmas special eventually ).

 

[Gatefan1976]

As we seem to be in a "collect a comment" mode right now:
Comment 58 by "Mikey1256"
http://forums.syfy.com/index.php?showtopic=2362835&page=3

 

[Overmind One]

As we seem to be in a "collect a comment" mode right now:
Comment 58 by "Mikey1256"
http://forums.syfy.com/index.php?showtopic=2362835&page=3

WOW....that was right on target what he said.

REPOST:

***

Posted Today, 02:22 PM
I'm going under the knife soon, followed by chemo and radiotion therapy. I was looking forward to following this series during my long recovery, I figured there'd be plenty of content here to keep me entertained while I spend the longest period of inactivity I've ever experienced.... but I think this show is going to be worse than the chemo.

The best acting is from Grant Bowler (Nolan) and Trenna Keating (Doc Yewll). The Old St. Louis concept is pretty cool and I like the idea of the bio-men. That's as far as I'm going with the parise.

I'm affraid the cart has been put before the horse. I get the feeling the MMO game is actually the main thing here and the show has been poured into the cracks around it. So we're taking science fiction, a cerebrial and technical genre, and tailoring it to a bunch of gamers... for whom science fiction is a conduit to blowing things up and chasing their friends around an MMO landscape. And voila, you get a shallow story written to the lowest common denominator.

Aside from being a poor attempt at science fiction, this is poor story telling. With no conflict, there's no story... learned that in Junior High English class. The marketing for the show led us to believe (at least me anyway) this was going to be a show about human "Defiance" in the face of alien invasion. But what we get is a bunch of hand-holding and singing Kumbaya in "defiance" of violence, or war, or whatever. Even interpersonal conflict between characters seems restrained and gets a nice resolution at the end of each episode. The "bad guys" (as marginally bad as they are) always seem to get a nice dose of redemption. The bio-man, who was the most menacing threat in town, turns out to be a missguided village idiot; the Spirit Riders who rob Nolan and Irisa in episode 1 show they aren't all bad by fighting the Vulge; The Irathiant girl, Rynn, attempts mass-murder using hell bugs, but saves the overland transport proving she's a nobel savage afterall. Too much "can't we all just get along" for me.

To compliment the after-school-special-flavored moral gravy drizzled over everything, we get a big helping of environmentalist agenda that isn't exactly subtle. Humanity is bad for the planet so civilization is plowed under and a new integrated society is born on the new landscape that "belongs to everyone," complete with the cliche windmills on the horizon, new magical alien minerals that burn clean and create no pollution, and Irathiant flower children who will no doubt show stupid, missguided humanity how to live in harmony with the universe. No thank you, I already saw Land of the Lost and Fraggle Rock when I was a child and the brainwash isn't going to be successful the second time either.

And its really sad, because the marketing was so good and I'd been waiting so long for something that was going to be epic. All the elements were there to make this a break-out, cross-over series. The marketing was there, the digital integration was there with the MMO game, the wiki is pretty cool, the second-screen app is way cool - As a marketing professional I really appreciate the defiance-themed advertising from the sponsors of the show... but the SHOW is the thing. All the peripheral stuff is okay and in some cases really good... but the show.... well, you can't shine shtago.

***

 

[shavedape]

Funny how we're all suddenly finding a whole bunch of real feedback on this show and game.

WOW....that was right on target what he said.

REPOST:

***

Posted Today, 02:22 PM
I'm going under the knife soon, followed by chemo and radiotion therapy. I was looking forward to following this series during my long recovery, I figured there'd be plenty of content here to keep me entertained while I spend the longest period of inactivity I've ever experienced.... but I think this show is going to be worse than the chemo.

The best acting is from Grant Bowler (Nolan) and Trenna Keating (Doc Yewll). The Old St. Louis concept is pretty cool and I like the idea of the bio-men. That's as far as I'm going with the parise.

I'm affraid the cart has been put before the horse. I get the feeling the MMO game is actually the main thing here and the show has been poured into the cracks around it. So we're taking science fiction, a cerebrial and technical genre, and tailoring it to a bunch of gamers... for whom science fiction is a conduit to blowing things up and chasing their friends around an MMO landscape. And voila, you get a shallow story written to the lowest common denominator.

Aside from being a poor attempt at science fiction, this is poor story telling. With no conflict, there's no story... learned that in Junior High English class. The marketing for the show led us to believe (at least me anyway) this was going to be a show about human "Defiance" in the face of alien invasion. But what we get is a bunch of hand-holding and singing Kumbaya in "defiance" of violence, or war, or whatever. Even interpersonal conflict between characters seems restrained and gets a nice resolution at the end of each episode. The "bad guys" (as marginally bad as they are) always seem to get a nice dose of redemption. The bio-man, who was the most menacing threat in town, turns out to be a missguided village idiot; the Spirit Riders who rob Nolan and Irisa in episode 1 show they aren't all bad by fighting the Vulge; The Irathiant girl, Rynn, attempts mass-murder using hell bugs, but saves the overland transport proving she's a nobel savage afterall. Too much "can't we all just get along" for me.

To compliment the after-school-special-flavored moral gravy drizzled over everything, we get a big helping of environmentalist agenda that isn't exactly subtle. Humanity is bad for the planet so civilization is plowed under and a new integrated society is born on the new landscape that "belongs to everyone," complete with the cliche windmills on the horizon, new magical alien minerals that burn clean and create no pollution, and Irathiant flower children who will no doubt show stupid, missguided humanity how to live in harmony with the universe. No thank you, I already saw Land of the Lost and Fraggle Rock when I was a child and the brainwash isn't going to be successful the second time either.

And its really sad, because the marketing was so good and I'd been waiting so long for something that was going to be epic. All the elements were there to make this a break-out, cross-over series. The marketing was there, the digital integration was there with the MMO game, the wiki is pretty cool, the second-screen app is way cool - As a marketing professional I really appreciate the defiance-themed advertising from the sponsors of the show... but the SHOW is the thing. All the peripheral stuff is okay and in some cases really good... but the show.... well, you can't shine shtago.

***

All great points! Someone send this guy an invite to GateFans.

 

[Tripler]

[/ATTACH]

--- merged: May 16, 2013 at 4:38 PM ---
After watching a few more episodes I am starting to be embarrassed that this show is being shot so close to my home . How sad . The friggin story is going all over the place . I still love Jamie though and Graham Greene but I feel sorry for them . You can see how hard they are trying to add something to what they have to work with . I also drive or walk by the set every day to see if there is any stir so I will let you guys know if the sets are struck or not . I really can't see them doing another season . But they also said the Liberals would not win there seat again in British Columbia SO you never can tell . Are you still giving away Crystal Balls ?
But hey ,,,it gives us something to laugh about for the next few weeks anyway . I mean the editing is horrendous . My daughter would just die laughing if she had the stomach to watch this show , which she does not lol !!!