"The utopian future of 'Star Trek' doesn't work without extreme inequality and some slavery"

[Jim of WVa]

Fences do not make neighbors. Fences divide people. Fences mark out "territory". Not a single patch of earth on this planet belongs to any individual. Fences are how all this bullshit dividing of people into nation-states started in the first place.

Said every paleolithic loser...

 

[Gatefan1976]

Said every paleolithic loser...

And modern wonderbread............

 

[Overmind One]

Said every paleolithic loser...

Facts are facts. Build a fence, divide something. You have another way to see it Jim? I am not surprised.

 

[Jim of WVa]

This is what happens when there are no property rights:

 

[Overmind One]

This is what happens when there are no property rights:
View attachment 31978

Nobody "owns" anything. Land ownership is a construct, like money and religion. Any utopian society like the one we are discussing in this thread will have abolished borders.

No, that (in your picture) is what happens when invading colonists draw borders and divide people from the resources they need to survive. Or, if those resources are outright STOLEN from them. All poverty and strife in Africa was caused by invading European colonists who divided the continent into separate nations. What country in Africa is that?

 

[shavedape]

So, just to be clear, there has never been an official explanation of socio-economics in the ST-verse, correct?

 

[Overmind One]

So, just to be clear, there has never been an official explanation of socio-economics in the ST-verse, correct?

Actually, no. In many of the episodes it has been clearly stated that the Federation does not use money. In the movie First Contact, Capt Picard explains to Lily that Humanity has moved beyond the accumulation of wealth and that people now strive to better themselves and the rest of Humanity. So, no he did not label the socio-economic system, but what he is describing is a basically socialist meritocracy. No money = socialist. Advancement by bettering oneself = meritocracy. We see Starfleet which is still structured like the military of today (which does not jive with a socialist meritocracy), but that is because of the non-Federation societies which are still either monetary economies or dictatorships or authoritarian regimes. Just my observations....

 

[Gatefan1976]

So, just to be clear, there has never been an official explanation of socio-economics in the ST-verse, correct?

No.
Gene never went that deep into it. He -did- say that there was no money (loudly and often), but even eps of T.O.S. contradict that statement, so you get a conflict even in that.

The main thing not to do is consider -starfleet- being the same as the UFP, because they simply are not the same thing. Starfleet is the exploration and (when needed) defense force for the entire UFP and it's members are highly trained, motivated people with access to cutting edge tech. The UFP also has the Merchant Marine corps, who take care of the day to day travel and transport needs of the UFP. There are Non-starfleet top tier educational facilities for non SF people to attend such as the Daystrom Institute, Canebridge university is still going, and there are a host of other organizations both on Earth, it's colonies and other federation member worlds (Vulcan Science Institute for example)
Basically, anyone can do anything they want, so long as they have the training and aptitude for it. Sisko's dad runs a restraunt, Chief O'Brian's family and Worf's adopded father were in the Merchant Marines, Picard's brother runs the family vinyard. Keiko O'brian becomes a teacher etc etc.

 

[Jim of WVa]

Nobody "owns" anything. Land ownership is a construct, like money and religion. Any utopian society like the one we are discussing in this thread will have abolished borders.

No, that (in your picture) is what happens when invading colonists draw borders and divide people from the resources they need to survive. Or, if those resources are outright STOLEN from them. All poverty and strife in Africa was caused by invading European colonists who divided the continent into separate nations. What country in Africa is that?

All of the poverty and strife in Africa were there a long time before the White European Man or the White Arab Man went to Africa.

It does not matter what country in Africa the photo was taken. The photo was taken in the Kibera slum in Nairobi, Kenya.

There are places in Central and South America just as bad. Because the unifying principles are the lack of clear title to land and other property rights.

 

[Jim of WVa]

No.
Gene never went that deep into it. He -did- say that there was no money (loudly and often), but even eps of T.O.S. contradict that statement, so you get a conflict even in that.

The main thing not to do is consider -starfleet- being the same as the UFP, because they simply are not the same thing. Starfleet is the exploration and (when needed) defense force for the entire UFP and it's members are highly trained, motivated people with access to cutting edge tech. The UFP also has the Merchant Marine corps, who take care of the day to day travel and transport needs of the UFP. There are Non-starfleet top tier educational facilities for non SF people to attend such as the Daystrom Institute, Canebridge university is still going, and there are a host of other organizations both on Earth, it's colonies and other federation member worlds (Vulcan Science Institute for example)
Basically, anyone can do anything they want, so long as they have the training and aptitude for it. Sisko's dad runs a restraunt, Chief O'Brian's family and Worf's adopded father were in the Merchant Marines, Picard's brother runs the family vinyard. Keiko O'brian becomes a teacher etc etc.

Worf's adopted father was in Starfleet. Of what need is there for a Merchant Navy when Replicator Technology and FTL Communication are both used throughout the Federation?

 

[Overmind One]

All of the poverty and strife in Africa were there a long time before the White European Man or the White Arab Man went to Africa.

It does not matter what country in Africa the photo was taken. The photo was taken in the Kibera slum in Nairobi, Kenya.

There are places in Central and South America just as bad. Because the unifying principles are the lack of clear title to land and other property rights.

No, it wasnt. The European introduced poverty to Africa by dividing it's land and it's people. If food became scarce in one region, Africans simply moved to more productive areas. Africa is literally COVERED with food. The Europeans invaded Africa and every other continent and drew borders where there were none before.

NOBODY owns land in reality. It is a construct.

 

[Jim of WVa]

No, it wasnt. And I am moving this race-baiting thread to the lower class area of the site where it belongs.

With no clear title to land, then there is no motivation to build permanent housing structures. See West Bank and Gaza Strip.

From the Gaza Strip:

 

[Overmind One]

With no clear title to land, then there is no motivation to build permanent housing structures. See West Bank and Gaza Strip.

NOBODY owns land, period. It is a construct. There can never be clear title to land because it cannot really "belong" to anyone. All of that is a construct, like money, religion, race and nation-states. There are no borders except those drawn by Europeans since the 16th Century.

You are derailing this topic. We are discussing the development of the utopian society as depicted in Star Trek. You cannot unite Humanity by dividing it with fences or borders.

 

[Jim of WVa]

NOBODY owns land, period. It is a construct. There can never be clear title to land because it cannot really "belong" to anyone. All of that is a construct, like money, religion, race and nation-states. There are no borders except those drawn by Europeans since the 16th Century.

You are derailing this topic. We are discussing the development of the utopian society as depicted in Star Trek. You cannot unite Humanity by dividing it with fences or borders.

This is what happens when no one own a piece of land:

 

[Overmind One]

This is what happens when no one own a piece of land:

I stopped at:

"based upon an essay written in 1833 by Lloyd, the Victorian economist,"

It is exactly as I stated. Europeans divided the world into nation-states. Borders divide people and create sides. You CANNOT have that in a utopia designed to benefit all of Humanity. No property ownership. Nobody owns property except as a result of a construct allowing ownership to exist. If you cannot see that then you do not understand the difference between a construct and reality. This is North America:



This is a construct (all of the borders)

 

[Jim of WVa]

I


I stopped at:

"based upon an essay written in 1833 by Lloyd, the Victorian economist,"

...

Yes, because you must be a tard.

 

[Overmind One]

Yes, because you must be a tard.

Says the person who believes in race and other pseudoscience. Listen, this thread is about the development of a utopian future in the vein of Star Trek and other forward looking social systems. While we are talking about the future, you are reaching back to 1833 for ideas? Really Jim?

Move past this. You cannot have a utopia which is divided on any level except that of the individuals which make up the whole. We would have individual homes, families, lives and ideas. Those which advance the condition of Humanity would have access to more tools to do just that. Those who choose to do nothing can still enjoy a relatively stress free life without need to go hungry or unsheltered. Humans are not naturally lazy. Anyone thinking that somebody else should do things for them like dress them, raise their children or clean their homes are the lazy ones. There would be none of that.

Like Bluce mentioned earlier, much of this utopian world would come as a result of technology. Labor saving tools, robotic equipment performing tasks which endanger human lives (like mining or working around dangerous chemicals). The elimination of money insures that jobs get done without regard to "the bottom line". The product would be shared amongst all, not sold. United Humanity can have no borders.

 

[Jim of WVa]

Says the person who believes in race and other pseudoscience. Listen, this thread is about the development of a utopian future in the vein of Star Trek and other forward looking social systems. While we are talking about the future, you are reaching back to 1833 for ideas? Really Jim?

Move past this. You cannot have a utopia which is divided on any level except that of the individuals which make up the whole. We would have individual homes, families, lives and ideas. Those which advance the condition of Humanity would have access to more tools to do just that. Those who choose to do nothing can still enjoy a relatively stress free life without need to go hungry or unsheltered. Humans are not naturally lazy. Anyone thinking that somebody else should do things for them like dress them, raise their children or clean their homes are the lazy ones. There would be none of that.

Like Bluce mentioned earlier, much of this utopian world would come as a result of technology. Labor saving tools, robotic equipment performing tasks which endanger human lives (like mining or working around dangerous chemicals). The elimination of money insures that jobs get done without regard to "the bottom line". The product would be shared amongst all, not sold. United Humanity can have no borders.

Yup, you are a tard.

 

[Overmind One]

Yup, you are a tard.

If the subject matter is beyond your comprehension (or your interest), then simply leave it. You are adding nothing to the discussion at this point.

This is not a debate thread.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Worf's adopted father was in Starfleet. Of what need is there for a Merchant Navy when Replicator Technology and FTL Communication are both used throughout the Federation?

You are correct, he was a petty officer, my error.
As for the Merchant navy, not everything can be replicated, nor can people just transwarp teleport everywhere..............
(oops)