"The utopian future of 'Star Trek' doesn't work without extreme inequality and some slavery"

[YJ02]

Many scientists discuss this. All over the world. But the steps necessary would destroy most of the major social constructs which have been created as a result of the invention of money and it's assigned value. To just begin, these would be the first steps:

1. Eliminate all national borders. No more nation-states.
   
2. Nullify all forms of money.
   
3. Eliminate national military forces and empty all national treasuries of all gold and silver and platinum (use those materials for industry and science)
4. Distribute food to every person in every nation (this is possible EASILY)
   
5. Rewrite most of the laws which governed people living in nation-states (which would be eliminated)

It would have to be made a crime for anyone to try and establish a separate nation-state, or to otherwise create something divided away from the rest of Humanity for their own gain. No hoarders, no forced labor to enrich individuals who want more than they have merited in that society, etc. Starting new means destroying most of the old.

it would be extremely diff to do numbers 1 and 4 without some kind of organized group that used force

but aren't the "other 99%" in ST (the non YFP/SF members) of Earth essentially "forced labor"? they brought this up in the article--what other choices do they have?

and again-you can't stop ppl from abusing one another en masse without some form of armed police or military force

human beings are not going to just change like this without some kind of strong motivation to do so

 

[YJ02]

It would take a catastrophic event to make any of this happen. In Star Trek, that event was the nuclear WWIII.

scientifically speaking-did ST allow enough time for a "appropriate" nuclear winter after their WW3?

would survivors of such a real life event act in a more "walking dead" manner-where survivors tend to kill off one another rather then group up-or in a ST manner-the more peaceful one implied (with exception for the eugenics wars)?

 

[Bluce Ree]

scientifically speaking-did ST allow enough time for a "appropriate" nuclear winter after their WW3?

would survivors of such a real life event act in a more "walking dead" manner-where survivors tend to kill off one another rather then group up-or in a ST manner-the more peaceful one implied (with exception for the eugenics wars)?

In ST: First Contact, we learned a little about warring factions fighting over resources and territory. I don't recall exactly how long after the war it was but it did, in some manner, take your second point into consideration. It was only after first contact with the Vulcans that the new era was ushered in.

 

[Overmind One]

it would be extremely diff to do numbers 1 and 4 without some kind of organized group that used force

but aren't the "other 99%" in ST (the non YFP/SF members) of Earth essentially "forced labor"? they brought this up in the article--what other choices do they have?

and again-you can't stop ppl from abusing one another en masse without some form of armed police or military force

human beings are not going to just change like this without some kind of strong motivation to do so

Not really. The only reason borders are in place is because they are enforced by threats of violence if crossed. It is nothing more than posturing, and has nothing to do with the masses. #4 is food distribution. What force would be necessary for that? All entities (other than something like a Council without any means of force) would be stripped of any ability to do things by force on their own. No military, no guns, no means of mass destruction. None of that is necessary when there are no borders and everything is free. We would only need accounting of resources.

 

[Bluce Ree]

Not really. The only reason borders are in place is because they are enforced by threats of violence if crossed. It is nothing more than posturing, and has nothing to do with the masses. #4 is food distribution. What force would be necessary for that? All entities (other than something like a Council without any means of force) would be stripped of any ability to do things by force on their own. No military, no guns, no means of mass destruction. None of that is necessary when there are no borders and everything is free. We would only need accounting of resources.

Yong is not taking into consideration the technological advances that automate most tasks, like farming, harvesting, construction, etc. This would make "forced" (or otherwise) labor unnecessary.

Members of Starfleet volunteer to serve. Hell, if I was given the chance to explore space on a Federation class starship I would be all over that like white on rice. The perks and benefits of being part of Starfleet speak for themselves. It caters to most aspects of humans needs and wants except for accumulation of wealth, which is rendered moot for most. The ST universe isn't perfect, not all humans have been cleansed of corruption and greed but the society as a whole has been.

 

[Overmind One]

Note to Jim...

If you are going to use the ugly Disagree ratings, at least explain why you gave them.

 

[YJ02]

Not really. The only reason borders are in place is because they are enforced by threats of violence if crossed. It is nothing more than posturing, and has nothing to do with the masses. #4 is food distribution. What force would be necessary for that? All entities (other than something like a Council without any means of force) would be stripped of any ability to do things by force on their own. No military, no guns, no means of mass destruction. None of that is necessary when there are no borders and everything is free. We would only need accounting of resources.

without someone in charge of food distribution--especially after a worldwide calamity-chaos would ensue

without order some 'strongman' with a gang would take over the food supply

just look at what happens today after disaster and how ppl-left out of order- turn to 'first come first serve' rules

I really do get what you are saying, just don't believe ppl would allow it to work

------------------------------------
How do you organize the post nuke war masses into work groups? who is going to sort through who is who?

Scientists and engineers and workmen with skills would be needed to begin rebuilding the cities and the factories that would build all of what would be needed for an ordered "st type world" life

Without someone in charge-who had the means to use force if needed-to sort and classsify the ppl, I don't see how they would coalesce into a workable body of willing,fed, housed and compensated workforce

the method you suggest--just let everyone sort it out-seems much like some type of 'osmosis" type activity. as if ppl are just going to gather and figure everything out without some leadership

 

[shavedape]

Members of Starfleet volunteer to serve. Hell, if I was given the chance to explore space on a Federation class starship I would be all over that like white on rice. The perks and benefits of being part of Starfleet speak for themselves. It caters to most aspects of humans needs and wants except for accumulation of wealth, which is rendered moot for most. The ST universe isn't perfect, not all humans have been cleansed of corruption and greed but the society as a whole has been.

Oh yeah? What if the only job they had open was on the janitorial staff? You'd probably rethink your career with Starfleet once you've had to unclog Counselor Troi's toilet the day after she's eaten a large Ferengi burrito.

Good luck with that 5-year mission, space boy!

 

[Overmind One]

without someone in charge of food distribution--especially after a worldwide calamity-chaos would ensue

without order some 'strongman' with a gang would take over the food supply

See, this is the sort of thinking that came from the conqueror's side...they had nothing. Food was scarce for them. Western Europe has no natural resources to trade, even today. They have no big game, no rainforests, and access to fresh water was also scarce. They invaded lands which were rich in these resources (Africa, Southern Asia, Canada, North America, South America, island nations in the temperate zones). It wasn't the victims of colonization who were poor, it was those who were invading. There is PLENTY of food. Always has been. A surplus. In Africa, food did not become scarce in some places until borders were drawn by colonist/invaders which effectively divided people from available resources. In South America, lands which grew a balanced variety of crops were re-purposed for cash crops like cane and bananas and cotton.

just look at what happens today after disaster and how ppl-left out of order- turn to 'first come first serve' rules

I really do get what you are saying, just don't believe ppl would allow it to work

WHICH people. This is very important that you see it for what it is. The only people who stand to lose what they have stolen and the lands which they have claimed will only be losing control of the resources that never belonged to them anyway.

How do you organize the post nuke war masses into work groups? who is going to sort through who is who?

Scientists and engineers and workmen with skills would be needed to begin rebuilding the cities and the factories that would build all of what would be needed for an ordered "st type world" life

Hopefully, the balance of power will shift to those who believe that even the existence of such heinous weapons of mass destruction is a problem. Look at the Chernobyl accident. Had there been an explosion of the second reactor, or had the water beneath the reactor had been melted through, the groundwater would be contaminated with cesium and most of central and western Europe would be uninhabitable for thousands of years. Those who have their fingers on nuclear triggers are the biggest, most dangerous gun nut preppers of all.

Without someone in charge-who had the means to use force if needed-to sort and classsify the ppl, I don't see how they would coalesce into a workable body of willing,fed, housed and compensated workforce

the method you suggest--just let everyone sort it out-seems much like some type of 'osmosis" type activity. as if ppl are just going to gather and figure everything out without some leadership

Bolded is EXACTLY the problem with today's messed up society. People DO NOT need to be classified, they do not need to be forced, coerced or otherwise guided by other humans. That anyone thinks that they should have the authority to do that is the very root of supremacy (regardless of what they look like). When people select a leader (by following the leader who is leading by example), force is unnecessary. Primates naturally form hierarchies based upon a number of factors. Humans NATURALLY care for each other. This is the way of humanity for more than a hundred thousand years. Only recently did that change.

People do not need to be classified.
Borders divide people, not unite them.

Conquerors rule, Leaders lead. People voluntarily follow leaders. They only obey rulers (rulers are not leaders). Rulers use force to get things done, and that is why they fail ultimately. People have the ability to rule themselves. Humanity's default state is NOT one of fearing one another. That mindset is held only by certain groups of people.

 

[Bluce Ree]

Oh yeah? What if the only job they had open was on the janitorial staff? You'd probably rethink your career with Starfleet once you've had to unclog Counselor Troi's toilet the day after she's eaten a large Ferengi burrito.

Good luck with that 5-year mission, space boy!

Meh, I'd still have luxurious quarters with the most spectacular views no human can even begin to imagine. Besides, there would never be a dull moment if I get to clean the ship with a phaser and a hand-held transporter.

I'll bide my time. Everyone on Star Trek has their shining moment eventually.

 

[Joelist]

Just be careful what color shirt they give you....

 

[Joelist]

And the classic Star Trek situation!

 

[Overmind One]

Yong is not taking into consideration the technological advances that automate most tasks, like farming, harvesting, construction, etc. This would make "forced" (or otherwise) labor unnecessary.

Members of Starfleet volunteer to serve. Hell, if I was given the chance to explore space on a Federation class starship I would be all over that like white on rice. The perks and benefits of being part of Starfleet speak for themselves. It caters to most aspects of humans needs and wants except for accumulation of wealth, which is rendered moot for most. The ST universe isn't perfect, not all humans have been cleansed of corruption and greed but the society as a whole has been.

I think I would like to study warp theory and applied warp technology (joining a team, of course). I imagine most all education in the free utopian future would be available online, in the form of complete courses administered by computers with perhaps a CGI professor "personality" to interact with on the screen. Tests would be given, no grades. No specific timetable. Just being able to pass at the required level. Putting the world's knowledge online for free means eliminating for-profit educational institutions, which make BILLIONS on students. They cannot even guarantee that the graduates will find work in their fields. Eliminating money means that sharing information would be free like it is supposed to be.

Think about it...in Trek, do we see brand names on instruments? Branded screens, commercial channels or was anything made by the Federation ever referred to as a "product"? Brand names are another form of currency. A subtle one, but brands definitely add value (or can have a value constructed for it). No brands means no corporations.

 

[Jim of WVa]

Not really. The only reason borders are in place is because they are enforced by threats of violence if crossed. It is nothing more than posturing, and has nothing to do with the masses. #4 is food distribution. What force would be necessary for that? All entities (other than something like a Council without any means of force) would be stripped of any ability to do things by force on their own. No military, no guns, no means of mass destruction. None of that is necessary when there are no borders and everything is free. We would only need accounting of resources.

"Good fences make good neighbors." -- Robert Frost

 

[Jim of WVa]

Many scientists discuss this. All over the world. But the steps necessary would destroy most of the major social constructs which have been created as a result of the invention of money and it's assigned value. To just begin, these would be the first steps:

1. Eliminate all national borders. No more nation-states.
   
2. Nullify all forms of money.
   
3. Eliminate national military forces and empty all national treasuries of all gold and silver and platinum (use those materials for industry and science)
4. Distribute food to every person in every nation (this is possible EASILY)
   
5. Rewrite most of the laws which governed people living in nation-states (which would be eliminated)

It would have to be made a crime for anyone to try and establish a separate nation-state, or to otherwise create something divided away from the rest of Humanity for their own gain. No hoarders, no forced labor to enrich individuals who want more than they have merited in that society, etc. Starting new means destroying most of the old.

Radical socialism ends when enough people realize that they do not have to work for a living.

 

[Overmind One]

Radical socialism ends when enough people realize that they do not have to work for a living.

The thing is, people DONT have to work for a living (in a perfect world). They have to gather/eat food, drink water, shelter themselves, procreate and die. If they choose to accomplish nothing, that is their choice. I do not think most people would choose that. But it is wrong to force others to work and then sit back and reap the benefits of the work of others. That is why there is a feeling of "guilt" that humans experience. I do not think anyone WANTS to sit and do nothing. But I do not think that people being forced (by the need to acquire money to pay for living) counts as essential needs. Eliminating money means eliminating requiring it in order to get food, shelter, etc.

 

[Overmind One]

"Good fences make good neighbors." -- Robert Frost

Fences do not make neighbors. Fences divide people. Fences mark out "territory". Not a single patch of earth on this planet belongs to any individual. Fences are how all this bullshit dividing of people into nation-states started in the first place.

 

[Overmind One]

Radical socialism ends when enough people realize that they do not have to work for a living.

What is "radical socialism"? Families and tribes are socialist units. Social cohesiveness is NATURAL for humans. It is an unnatural state for humans to be divided from each other with fences, or forced to live within a framework constructed by others for gain. We are talking about a utopia here and how to get there. That means being able to envision alternatives to the completely uncivilized way things are today (socially speaking).

 

[Overmind One]

Meh, I'd still have luxurious quarters with the most spectacular views no human can even begin to imagine. Besides, there would never be a dull moment if I get to clean the ship with a phaser and a hand-held transporter.

I'll bide my time. Everyone on Star Trek has their shining moment eventually.

I can actually picture that....

 

[Gatefan1976]

Well, I finally got around to reading the article, and all I can say is, they (the panel, and the author) don't know the first thing about what they are talking about. Attempting to discuss Trek in modern values is a total waste of time, and the very essence of an apples to oranges argument. It's the kind of argument Ben Carson would make.

First things first, Starfleet is in NO WAY representative of the greater organization it is part of (the UFP). What they are essentially doing is say, looking at the totally socialistic construction of most military forces that exist -right now- and saying that is how the civilian government works. In the military, when you need something built, you send in the Engineers, and you get it built. Money is not the concern for the corps on the ground, their job is to build the thing, and they do. Manpower, expertise and materials are simply provided to get the job done.

IF you wanted to make the a Federation style world council, the first thing you would do is buy out all private companies who supply energy and give them to a UN style organization that has no "security council" as it exists now where the larger members have veto power. Energy would then be used as the "barter system" if someone needed beyond "normal usage". The next thing you would provide to this new UN would be the telecommunications systems of the planet, in order to disseminate information on a global scale. Lastly, you would transfer control of all military power to them. By this stage, most military forces should have been cut back (as they already own energy, and the military requires vast amounts of energy), and continental borders would have started to degrade as the core reasons for maintaining them would simply start to vanish. That leaves 4-5 continental powers to be concerned with, which is a far more manageable situation than the currently hundreds of independent countries.

Now, How you get that first step done in this current world, that's the big question.

As for slavery, who is being enslaved?
As for Inequality, who is being treated unequally?
Those two are a load of shite, frankly not even worth bothering addressing. Measure of a man does not debate weather Data is property or not, but weather we have evolved to recognize sentience beyond our current understanding of it, and how we treat that sentience. Slavery my arse. Inequality? Who is unequal? The life of every UFP citizen is treated the same, and again, the only difference you find is in -Starfleet-, who are not the UFP.

 

[Overmind One]

Well, I finally got around to reading the article, and all I can say is, they (the panel, and the author) don't know the first thing about what they are talking about. Attempting to discuss Trek in modern values is a total waste of time, and the very essence of an apples to oranges argument. It's the kind of argument Ben Carson would make.

That is why this thread is here...lets take the discussion and make it our own. Any discussion of a Trek-style utopia should not involve an economist. I read the article and was shaking my head all through it. I agree, you cannot use modern values to discuss the utopian government/society of Star Trek. You cannot include businessmen, bankers, property owners or billionaires in any such discussions.

First things first, Starfleet is in NO WAY representative of the greater organization it is part of (the UFP). What they are essentially doing is say, looking at the totally socialistic construction of most military forces that exist -right now- and saying that is how the civilian government works. In the military, when you need something built, you send in the Engineers, and you get it built. Money is not the concern for the corps on the ground, their job is to build the thing, and they do. Manpower, expertise and materials are simply provided to get the job done.

There could be no money in a utopian future. Nothing even resembling money.

IF you wanted to make the a Federation style world council, the first thing you would do is buy out all private companies who supply energy and give them to a UN style organization that has no "security council" as it exists now where the larger members have veto power. Energy would then be used as the "barter system" if someone needed beyond "normal usage". The next thing you would provide to this new UN would be the telecommunications systems of the planet, in order to disseminate information on a global scale. Lastly, you would transfer control of all military power to them. By this stage, most military forces should have been cut back (as they already own energy, and the military requires vast amounts of energy), and continental borders would have started to degrade as the core reasons for maintaining them would simply start to vanish. That leaves 4-5 continental powers to be concerned with, which is a far more manageable situation than the currently hundreds of independent countries.

You assume here that energy is somehow a centralized commodity. Already, it is entirely possible to completely disconnect from the energy grid and make one's own energy from solar, composting heat extraction, fuel cells, etc. Military forces would have to be severely attenuated, reduced to the role of policemen and not soldiers. Soldiers would only be needed if there were war with alien species. With money gone and resources evenly disributed, there would be no need for people to steal (or be greedy).

Now, How you get that first step done in this current world, that's the big question.

As for slavery, who is being enslaved?
As for Inequality, who is being treated unequally?
Those two are a load of shite, frankly not even worth bothering addressing. Measure of a man does not debate weather Data is property or not, but weather we have evolved to recognize sentience beyond our current understanding of it, and how we treat that sentience. Slavery my arse. Inequality? Who is unequal? The life of every UFP citizen is treated the same, and again, the only difference you find is in -Starfleet-, who are not the UFP.

Do you mean in the future utopia or today? I agree, the UFP does not appear to be enslaving anyone or treating anyone unequally. Yet, we see slavery (in mines) and inequality in non Federation societies (like the Ferengi and the Romulans). Frankly, I do not understand why the Klingons were admitted into the Federation. They are a violent, uncivilized people. It's why I would never get into a Captain Worf based series. Klingons are badass (like pit bulls), but they are not civilized or respectable IMO.

 

[Gatefan1976]

That is why this thread is here...lets take the discussion and make it our own. Any discussion of a Trek-style utopia should not involve an economist. I read the article and was shaking my head all through it. I agree, you cannot use modern values to discuss the utopian government/society of Star Trek. You cannot include businessmen, bankers, property owners or billionaires in any such discussions.

Yup.

There could be no money in a utopian future. Nothing even resembling money.

No money, quite possibly, but there definitely would still be economics however. Resource based and used economy.

You assume here that energy is somehow a centralized commodity. Already, it is entirely possible to completely disconnect from the energy grid and make one's own energy from solar, composting heat extraction, fuel cells, etc.

Energy -is- the main commodity of the Trek universe. I don't simply mean electricity here dude. Yes, individuals can live off the grid, but getting the solar cells, a vehicle, food etc etc need more than just electricity at this stage. When I say energy, I mean the power to run industries, not just homes. Besides, one of the main attractions to "living off the grid" right now is to avoid the cost of electricity, which in this scenario simply would not exist anyway. You don't get an electricity bill in the first place.

Military forces would have to be severely attenuated, reduced to the role of policemen and not soldiers. Soldiers would only be needed if there were war with alien species. With money gone and resources evenly disributed, there would be no need for people to steal (or be greedy).

Yup.

Do you mean in the future utopia or today?

Future

I agree, the UFP does not appear to be enslaving anyone or treating anyone unequally. Yet, we see slavery (in mines)

When? Was it in the UFP?

and inequality in non Federation societies (like the Ferengi and the Romulans).

Sure.

Frankly, I do not understand why the Klingons were admitted into the Federation. They are a violent, uncivilized people.

Klingons are not in the UFP, the Empire is an ally.

It's why I would never get into a Captain Worf based series. Klingons are badass (like pit bulls), but they are not civilized or respectable IMO.

Worf is a federation citizen, he can hold any position within either the UFP, or Starfleet he qualifies for. To say he cannot "because he is a Klingon", is exactly the kind of thinking that the UFP has left behind.