Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

[Overmind One]

YAAAWWWNNN! did not pay for this movie - thank heavens - reworked the plot line from the first movie star wars. I felt it actually made the phantom menace look interesting & good.

Agreed. They ruined Star Wars totally. Mostly because they are retreading it and using reworked stories and characters instead of doing anything new. But that is to be expected of JJ Abrams. The excitement is just not there for me anymore.

 

[Rac80]

I have a funny - picked up pristine copies of the attack of the clones and the revenge of sith - deluxe editions - for $1 each at Half Price books - YES i love that store. looked for the phantom menace but the only copy they had looked like some little kid had teethed on it!

 

[Joelist]

Even at $1 the prequels are a ripoff . On the other hand I watched the OT recently again, and they are good films.

 

[Rac80]

these were deluxe 2 disc editions still in very nice cases. the force awakens makes Lucas's three prequels look genius!

 

[Joelist]

Sorry Rac, but the prequels are despised by Star Wars fans (and a lot of others too). And Star Wars fans overall liked The Force Awakens. If you want to fault the plot for being too similar to the OT Star Wars that is cool. Interestingly, I know a group of Star Wars fans (the kind that have a club and everything), and they loved The Force Awakens as did all the clubs they network with. I suspect that Star Trek and Stargate fans have a different set of things they look for in one of "their" films.

Star Trek and Stargate fans have a lot in common. We care a lot about the details of the plot and in the case of Trek that it has to raise questions like Trek did. We also get heavily into technical details of things like ships. This is why the Abrams Star Trek films did not resonate with the Trek fanbase - the details were wrong and the stories don't have the "Trek" element of raising actual questions.

Star Wars fans are for the most part different. While there is a small subgroup among them that gets into details of technology, mostly they accept that Star Wars is fantasy and are more concerned about the tone and feel of the picture and the characters than the details. Consequently, they are fine with things like Luke in the OT Star Wars jumping right into the cockpit of an X-Wing fighter with no training and piloting it proficiently, Obi Wan just knowing the exact control sequence to the deflector shield on the Death Star (R2D2 showed them where it was on the computer not the exact control operation) and so on. They also don't really care is the coincidence level in a story is high.

It's two different ways of looking at the media each fanbase follows. It's why the Trek and Gate fans thought less of The Force Awakens than the Star Wars fans, and also why the Star Wars fans liked the Abrams Trek films better than the Trek and gate fans.

 

[Rac80]

well this Star Wars fan does NOT despise those movies. Remember hon, I was one of the original fans - was around when Star Wars first hit the big screen ... i wasn't willing to fork out full price (although snookie did) for these, but they are enjoyable. I am long past the stage where what others think/feel about a movie/series affects me. you need to put the generalizations about fandoms away. I find there is much original thought among most people I know - some people (read kids ) get too into what a fandom should or shouldn't feel about things.

 

[Joelist]

Well since I never said anywhere what any fandom SHOULD feel, I don't really know what you're talking about here. I just noted the tendencies the different group have shown. It has nothing to do with individuality or original thought. It goes into the different area of why groups of people react differently to things.

 

[Rac80]

groupthink is NEVER a good thing. you did over generalize and assumed I wasn't a "good" star wars fan from your comment. you need to clarify - say "some" star wars fans, "many" star wars fans...BUT you implied "all"!

 

[Joelist]

Sorry Rac - I didn't do that. As stated it is simply an observation of how different fanbases tend to view "their" objects of fandom differently.

 

[Overmind One]

Sorry Rac, but the prequels are despised by Star Wars fans (and a lot of others too). And Star Wars fans overall liked The Force Awakens. If you want to fault the plot for being too similar to the OT Star Wars that is cool. Interestingly, I know a group of Star Wars fans (the kind that have a club and everything), and they loved The Force Awakens as did all the clubs they network with. I suspect that Star Trek and Stargate fans have a different set of things they look for in one of "their" films.

Star Trek and Stargate fans have a lot in common. We care a lot about the details of the plot and in the case of Trek that it has to raise questions like Trek did. We also get heavily into technical details of things like ships. This is why the Abrams Star Trek films did not resonate with the Trek fanbase - the details were wrong and the stories don't have the "Trek" element of raising actual questions.

Star Wars fans are for the most part different. While there is a small subgroup among them that gets into details of technology, mostly they accept that Star Wars is fantasy and are more concerned about the tone and feel of the picture and the characters than the details. Consequently, they are fine with things like Luke in the OT Star Wars jumping right into the cockpit of an X-Wing fighter with no training and piloting it proficiently, Obi Wan just knowing the exact control sequence to the deflector shield on the Death Star (R2D2 showed them where it was on the computer not the exact control operation) and so on. They also don't really care is the coincidence level in a story is high.

It's two different ways of looking at the media each fanbase follows. It's why the Trek and Gate fans thought less of The Force Awakens than the Star Wars fans, and also why the Star Wars fans liked the Abrams Trek films better than the Trek and gate fans.

I did not like The Force Awakens at all. They should have named it "Star Wars 4.5 An Old Hope"

 

[Overmind One]

Sorry Rac - I didn't do that. As stated it is simply an observation of how different fanbases tend to view "their" objects of fandom differently.

I have seen that a VERY significant portion of the solid SW fanbase thought Force Awakens was a retread of A New Hope and that it did not break any new ground. I am in that camp.

 

[Joelist]

Never said they didn't. But that also was not what they expected by and large. Like I said I have actual (beyond the internet) links into that community, and while we have different perspectives on what we want films to be (I am more in the Trek camp) I understood theirs. They expected and accepted that it was going to flow similarly to OP Star Wars because while it did that it also launched the new characters (which are well liked in the fanbase) while still staying true to the Star Wars tone and feel.

Interestingly, this is where Star Trek 2009 did go off the rails a bit (I still like it though). While it introduced the new characters (in this case reboots of the old ones) well and had some of the general Trek feel it did miss the details and because it really asked no questions it missed part of the Trek feel too. In fact, in many ways Trek 2009 feels like a Star Wars movie (which many viewers including on this forum noted). Now Into Darkness feels like total dreck on the other hand...

So, the REAL test for the new Star Wars movies is Episode VIII. Abrams is not directly involved here as while he an Executive Producer there are two others, in addition none of "his gang" are in the writing and directing teams. What do they do with Episode VIII?

They have the new main characters in place and such, but they also have a big challenge in that their "original trilogy opposite number" happens to be on many folks list of one of the best movies ever made (The Empire Strikes Back). I have to think they go in a completely different plot direction as otherwise they invite comparison to Empire, and that is an impossible task.

 

[YJ02]

Sorry Rac, but the prequels are despised by Star Wars fans (and a lot of others too). And Star Wars fans overall liked The Force Awakens. If you want to fault the plot for being too similar to the OT Star Wars that is cool. Interestingly, I know a group of Star Wars fans (the kind that have a club and everything), and they loved The Force Awakens as did all the clubs they network with. I suspect that Star Trek and Stargate fans have a different set of things they look for in one of "their" films.

Star Trek and Stargate fans have a lot in common. We care a lot about the details of the plot and in the case of Trek that it has to raise questions like Trek did. We also get heavily into technical details of things like ships. This is why the Abrams Star Trek films did not resonate with the Trek fanbase - the details were wrong and the stories don't have the "Trek" element of raising actual questions.

Star Wars fans are for the most part different. While there is a small subgroup among them that gets into details of technology, mostly they accept that Star Wars is fantasy and are more concerned about the tone and feel of the picture and the characters than the details. Consequently, they are fine with things like Luke in the OT Star Wars jumping right into the cockpit of an X-Wing fighter with no training and piloting it proficiently, Obi Wan just knowing the exact control sequence to the deflector shield on the Death Star (R2D2 showed them where it was on the computer not the exact control operation) and so on. They also don't really care is the coincidence level in a story is high.

It's two different ways of looking at the media each fanbase follows. It's why the Trek and Gate fans thought less of The Force Awakens than the Star Wars fans, and also why the Star Wars fans liked the Abrams Trek films better than the Trek and gate fans.

Ditto

I really do not see why ppl can't just enjoy each for what they are as they are--entertainment coming at you from different perspectives; one-more of a scientific/exploration one and the other a fantasy, dram/action one


<<per the novelization--and apparently cut scenes from ep 4--Luke had some basic pilot training from his friends on Tattoine. The one guy who went away to the imperial academy and the other he is watching the in orbit battle with from the ground thru "bino's"--can't remember names--but yeah--just gotta go with it

the movies aren't about flying the fighters but what is done with them in the larger sense>>

 

[YJ02]

retread

the story is a re-tread because human behavior and all the mistakes we make and remake are 're-treads'

for the whole 'good vs evil' story to play out fully, the mistakes/successes of the Skywalker family will be replayed over and over until the FORCE is satisfied

 

[Overmind One]

the story is a re-tread because human behavior and all the mistakes we make and remake are 're-treads'

for the whole 'good vs evil' story to play out fully, the mistakes/successes of the Skywalker family will be replayed over and over until the FORCE is satisfied

Not smart cultures and smart people...they learn from their mistakes by not forgetting them.

 

[Overmind One]

Ditto

I really do not see why ppl can't just enjoy each for what they are as they are--entertainment coming at you from different perspectives; one-more of a scientific/exploration one and the other a fantasy, dram/action one


<<per the novelization--and apparently cut scenes from ep 4--Luke had some basic pilot training from his friends on Tattoine. The one guy who went away to the imperial academy and the other he is watching the in orbit battle with from the ground thru "bino's"--can't remember names--but yeah--just gotta go with it

the movies aren't about flying the fighters but what is done with them in the larger sense>>

Because some people want more than shiny and explodey and pew pew sword fighty. Like some people enjoy comic books whilst others enjoy novels. Star Wars Force Awakens is a comic book, but the OT was a novel.

 

[YJ02]

Not smart cultures and smart people...they learn from their mistakes by not forgetting them.

of course

but Rey (if a Skywalker) and Kylo do not know their Skywalker ancestors or, like Kylo, are estranged from them and reject what they have learned in their past (Leia and Han) so they are both doomed to repeat the cycle between good and evil (Force balance/imbalance) that the Force has chosen for them

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I shall not engage in the eternal battle between ST and SW's! I will resist all evil attempts by the 'puritans' of either side!!!!

Be gone tempter!!!!

 

[Overmind One]

of course

but Rey (if a Skywalker) and Kylo do not know their Skywalker ancestors or, like Kylo, are estranged from them and reject what they have learned in their past (Leia and Han) so they are both doomed to repeat the cycle between good and evil (Force balance/imbalance) that the Force has chosen for them

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I shall not engage in the eternal battle between ST and SW's! I will resist all evil attempts by the 'puritans' of either side!!!!

Be gone tempter!!!!

We still don't know why Leia and Han failed so miserably with "defeating" the Empire, and allowing the damned galaxy to fall apart and be taken over.

 

[YJ02]

We still don't know why Leia and Han failed so miserably with "defeating" the Empire, and allowing the damned galaxy to fall apart and be taken over.

the empire was never defeated in full

not even by the time of EP7

the first order is the remnant of the empire reconstituted

after Endor-all the rebels had done was defeat one battle station and its accompanying fleet

the empire still controlled thousands of solar systems and billions of ppl as well as the means of manufacturing and the banking clans

it still had a very large navy and army with millions of ppl serving in the imperial armies and navy

Endor was like say the Battle of Normandy in WW2--the war was not won just because a beachhead had been secured

----------this is all canon- not shown in the movies but for those of us that read the canon books (written in full tune with the movies and shows and vice versa) like AFTERMATH and AFTERMATH -LIFE DEBT

and again-if the movies were more serious then just fantasy-i think we would have gotten more of the political and military situation explained in more detail then just a "crawl" at the films' start

 

[Joelist]

To be honest the lack of more exposition on the galactic situation bothered me too. I would have preferred they trim other scenes to clear about five minutes and have Leia outline the situation with those shortly after they meet her or alternately show her sending Poe to Jakku and do it then. I still like the film but that little piece of exposition would have been welcome.