Star Trek VOY: General Discussion Thread

[Bluce Ree]

True, but in the eps in question, they left them on long enough for them to evolve -just like the doc-, and later on in the Irish villiage, and earlier in Vic Fontaine in DS9. Leave the program running long enough, sentience seems to be the "Star Trek" result. (and also most Scifi result)

Yeah but, again, they didn't hand over Voyager's database, computing power and the eons of accumulated data. The holo projector was the equivalent of handing them an iPad. The entire premise was just plain stupid.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Yeah but, again, they didn't hand over Voyager's database, computing power and the eons of accumulated data. The holo projector was the equivalent of handing them an iPad. The entire premise was just plain stupid.

Ok, thats fair.
However, the Hirogin are NOT the Kazon, or any other " tech backwards" race. They are and have proven themselves to be capable of not only taking the Voyager crew but inserting them seemlesly into programs based on the Federation history Database. *In this case* It's more like handing Bill Gates Current tech guru an Ipad and saying "reverse engineer this", or expecting the Vidiians to have inferior surgical tech to The Federation.

 

[Bluce Ree]

Ok, thats fair.
However, the Hirogin are NOT the Kazon, or any other " tech backwards" race. They are and have proven themselves to be capable of not only taking the Voyager crew but inserting them seemlesly into programs based on the Federation history Database. *In this case* It's more like handing Bill Gates Current tech guru an Ipad and saying "reverse engineer this", or expecting the Vidiians to have inferior surgical tech to The Federation.

Fair enough but that just creates a completely different stupidity. So, the Hirogens had the ability to write self-evolving AI code before receiving a holo projector, which means they already had the ability to write sophisticated self-aware simulations that they could torture. Where's Voyager's dilemma?

 

[Gatefan1976]

The question really is Bluce my bro
Did STARFLEET expect the doctor to become self-aware and a lifeform, or was that just as much of an accident?

 

[Joelist]

Going back to that episode, they do state that the Hirogen took the holotech and "ran with it", enhancing and upgrading it to produce better prey. In the process they created sentient prey. In the world of Trek sentient Holograms can be created both by running long enough on a strong enough computer or just by a really concerted effort of a powerful computer (which is how the first sentient hologram was created - Moriarty in ST:TNG).

It's daffy but at least it is somewhat internally consistent.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Going back to that episode, they do state that the Hirogen took the holotech and "ran with it", enhancing and upgrading it to produce better prey. In the process they created sentient prey. In the world of Trek sentient Holograms can be created both by running long enough on a strong enough computer or just by a really concerted effort of a powerful computer (which is how the first sentient hologram was created - Moriarty in ST:TNG).

It's daffy but at least it is somewhat internally consistent.

And as I am sure you are aware Joe, Trek prides itself on being consistant!
(and memory fuzzy here, but was moriarty the first self aware hologram, or was it the lass from the Bynar upgrade?)

 

[Tropicana]

recently rewatched the ifnal 2 hour ep of voyager (it's on the time travel collective) and enjoyed it immensely! although my fave ep is the 2 part year in hell! the voyager get pummeled!

Sometimes it's so good to see an outstanding ship like Voyager crippled.

 

[Bluce Ree]

The question really is Bluce my bro
Did STARFLEET expect the doctor to become self-aware and a lifeform, or was that just as much of an accident?

I would imagine that was an accident but I can see that being possible with the advancement of technology and programming methods. We have that today in a form called "artificial neural networks" that adapt and change as they acquire more data (knowledge). It's a far cry from becoming self-aware but the basic framework is there and has been around for a while.

 

[Overmind One]

I would imagine that was an accident but I can see that being possible with the advancement of technology and programming methods. We have that today in a form called "artificial neural networks" that adapt and change as they acquire more data (knowledge). It's a far cry from becoming self-aware but the basic framework is there and has been around for a while.

They are used by Google

 

[Bluce Ree]

They are used by Google

You are correct, sir!

 

[Overmind One]

You are correct, sir!

Google = Skynet

I always had a problem with machine sentience in Trek. How could the ship's computer CREATE a sentient being yet not be sentient itself? Although I know that the first truly sentient computer seen in Trek was the M-5 created by Dr. Daystrom in TOS episode "The Ultimate Computer", that computer was dedicated to its sentience. The ship's computer on Voyager is not sentient, so how could it create a sentient being (machine or not). It implies that sentience is a mere set of parameters which, if fulfilled, create sentience. I never bought that. Now the Doctor is a different story. He is a sentient program because he LEARNED sentience. He acquired it through growth and time and enhancements. He is not a computer, he is a program matrix.

 

[Joelist]

I agree - the Doctor makes more sense than the other cases. Especially Moriarty. Remember how he became sentient? Geordi asked the ship's computer to program an opponent capable of defeating Data in a Holmesian mystery - the computer concluded that only a sentient being could do it and so created a sentient being - when it itself was not sentient?

As to Minuet (the Bynar created woman), she may have been sentient - they were never clear.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Google = Skynet

I always had a problem with machine sentience in Trek. How could the ship's computer CREATE a sentient being yet not be sentient itself? Although I know that the first truly sentient computer seen in Trek was the M-5 created by Dr. Daystrom in TOS episode "The Ultimate Computer", that computer was dedicated to its sentience. The ship's computer on Voyager is not sentient, so how could it create a sentient being (machine or not). It implies that sentience is a mere set of parameters which, if fulfilled, create sentience. I never bought that. Now the Doctor is a different story. He is a sentient program because he LEARNED sentience. He acquired it through growth and time and enhancements. He is not a computer, he is a program matrix.

Remember when I said ST 2009 was "missing something"?
These kinds of discussions were exactly what it was missing.

 

[Overmind One]

Remember when I said ST 2009 was "missing something"?
These kinds of discussions were exactly what it was missing.

I have now watched that movie about 15 times, and there is something "dumbed down" about it to me. I dunno...
--- merged: Feb 15, 2013 at 1:14 PM ---

You are correct, sir!

http://mashable.com/2012/10/09/google-artificial-intelligence/

 

[Gatefan1976]

I have now watched that movie about 15 times, and there is something "dumbed down" about it to me. I dunno...

It's an action flick, and a good one, but Trek generally has a moral message going on (which granted alot of people dislike) that 2009 didn't seem to have. Perhaps the next flick will have that element put back into it?
--- merged: Feb 15, 2013 at 1:30 PM ---
Here is a question related to the issue.
Is your body sentient, or just your mind?

 

[Rac80]

I agree - the Doctor makes more sense than the other cases. Especially Moriarty. Remember how he became sentient? Geordi asked the ship's computer to program an opponent capable of defeating Data in a Holmesian mystery - the computer concluded that only a sentient being could do it and so created a sentient being - when it itself was not sentient?

As to Minuet (the Bynar created woman), she may have been sentient - they were never clear.

I never thought she was sentient, just a hologram designed perfectly for Riker.


as to body sentience-- yeas ago I had to go to California to bring mr rac's mentally ill sister to live with us. I was gone about 2 weeks- when I first left ,hubby found that during the night he would throw his pillows off the bed and grab mine to sleep on- after 3 or 4 days he started sleeping on mine when he went to bed. He never threw mine off the bed.

 

[mzzz]

Started watching this for the first time, about 4-5 episodes in, guess I should avoid this thread.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Started watching this for the first time, about 4-5 episodes in, guess I should avoid this thread.

Probably, it's why I avoided the continuum thread

 

[shavedape]

Sometimes it's so good to see an outstanding ship like Voyager crippled.

I always felt that we never got to see the true Voyager. The first season they made a point of telling us that it was a science ship and had biological components. It was supposed to be a drastically different type of design compared to what we had seen in other ST shows/movies. But, we never did see much of that stuff, just some lip service to it initially and then it was dropped. Also, like all ST ships it tended to get crippled pretty easily (this has always bugged me).

 

[Joelist]

I recently noted in some rewatches that two things about the show that formerly had bugged me were actually addressed in the plot: endless shuttles and the ship running for years without a major overhaul.

Well, it turned out they expressly spoke about the shuttle issue. They had an episode where they were looking for a rare element because it was a ship and shuttle component they could not fabricate on board. They were fabricating parts both to repair the ship and build shuttles - this was also mentioned when they built the Delta Flyer.

As to the overhaul, the whole premise of the episode titled "nightingale" had Voyager landed on an uninhabited world and partly disassembled (especially the nacelles) because the ship needed to be overhauled and they were doing it. It was actually pretty cool with shuttles carrying pieces around and such.