Jim of WVa
Well Known GateFan
For the same reason Teyla's people spoke English. SG-1/SGA/SGU producers made science fiction shows with a comic book understanding of science and the military.
SGA
- Thread starter YJ02
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For the same reason Teyla's people spoke English. SG-1/SGA/SGU producers made science fiction shows with a comic book understanding of science and the military.
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
I guess when you think about it, that was one thing that-maybe-tptb was trying to show (or maybe did it with out knowing it) that when modern humans put the ancients up on a high intellectual and tech superior pedestal it is difficult or not impossible for them to see the ancients as flawed in their pride and arrogance. Some, like the ascended/descended protector -Chaya Sar of the primitive planet tried to show-i think-that the ancients knew they had certain powers and abilities/tech etc, but also-some of them at least-knew that their powers were limited and not the be all end all. Apparently though, it seems that those like Chaya were few. The arrogance of the ancients ahown in sga just makes me want to-even more-see a prequel type movie/show where the ancients on earth are faced with the rise of the goa'uld and how some-full of pride and not wanting to become "beings of light" could not resist the temptations of becoming a host.
Did you get the feeling also that the ep "epiphany" was not too much more then a take on "LOST"? I mean the ppl waiting to ascend are on a "island" type piece of land-created by the time dilation device, that is protected by tech just like how the others on lost our on a protected/secluded island. the island on lost has the "smoke monster" and the humans in epiphany have the beast they created.
--- merged: Feb 9, 2013 at 5:09 PM ---
I've said it before--in the sg1 threads-that it is simply amazing how humans spread across the galaxy, descended from various disparate ancient human ethnic groups-with disconnected native languages (including Mongolian)--ALL speak and understand modern American/Canadian dialect of English. Amazing really..
It wouldn't have been too much of a leap (it is a sci fi show) if they would have developed some type of universal translator. All the languages encountered are some form of Earth language.
Maybe tptb didn't want to "lose" anyone in confusion--whatever
Yeah, no heavy weapons because maybe too big for the gate, yet at the "alpha site" we see a nearly entire airbase complete with fuel trucks. How did they get the excavation equipment need to dig the base underground there? Or the fuel trucks. I suppose they sent them through the gate piece by piece and reassembled ala, Radar (Klinger?) mailing home a Jeep piece by piece.
ParagonPie
Well Known GateFan
I guess what I'm trying to say (sorry if I'm repeating here) I just don't like the fact that the ancients are human, ignore the Jedi powers for a moment and you'll realize how can a species that has been around for millions of years and not change? What about genetic modification? Cybernetics? Synthetic consciousness transfer? There are other paths to being immortal in the physical world, yet the average Ancient life span was roughly the same as a modern day human, so I guess the Ancients didn't employ advanced medical technology then? Also the whole 'ascended thing' I hated anyway because well it says evolution has a predicted path, which it doesn't its a change that occurs to suit the needs of the environment. In terms of the arrogance I guess I threw my own teddy out then, so thinking back now its in the same vein as the Asgard having too much faith or over confidence in their technology to sort out the problems.
However in the Return, it was just another ploy to gain access to a ZPM because the other one ran out. Oh joy they met the Ancients! Woohoo! 5 minutes later we never hear a peep. Why didn't the put the Asgard in contact with the Ancients? Or the Nox? Surely those would of been better intermediaries because that actually built up the whole 'four race alliance' thing? Nope, not going to do that. Head desk.
However in the Return, it was just another ploy to gain access to a ZPM because the other one ran out. Oh joy they met the Ancients! Woohoo! 5 minutes later we never hear a peep. Why didn't the put the Asgard in contact with the Ancients? Or the Nox? Surely those would of been better intermediaries because that actually built up the whole 'four race alliance' thing? Nope, not going to do that. Head desk.
shavedape
Well Known GateFan
I completely agree. I never got the way that the Ancients were basically human. Quite simply there's no way they could be just average humans after such a long period of technical development and evolution. I can only attribute this oversight to lazy writing. We saw shades of it in SGA (like your examples) and the full blown effects of lazy writing in SGU.
ParagonPie
Well Known GateFan
I think it was SG1 that planted the idea of the Ancients being human so I won't blame SGA entirely for that. They could of kept the Ancients a mystery still, in that no one actually knows who they are and the race they thought were the Ancients were just ones who found and used their technology which left over (archives or those knowledge repository thing etc). In SGA the humans seen in 'The Return' or 'Aurora' could of just been from human worlds which reached a technological level to interact with the Ancients so when the war occurred they volunteered in defense of other human worlds, became the Lantean Military (since humans are the most wide spread race) and therefore got given certain advancements in technology.
I did have a good idea for why the Wraith need to feed on humans. Firstly huge retcons a hoy! The Wraith were indigenous to the Pegasus galaxy, a very power race that slept in deep states of torpor. When Atlantis arrived it posed a threat and eventually the two came into conflict when the Ancients seeded a good number of worlds with humans. During the conflict the Ancients found and poisoned their primary source of replenishment which caused a genetic mutation which would cause them to degrade over the generations. However one could say the Wraith 'acquired' one of the life seed ships, unlocked the technology and used the human genetic material to 'patch' their degradation. Humans now became the sole fuel for their warfare and Ancients unwilling to destroy their own creations was their downfall in the conflict. After the conflict the Wraith twisted the Ancient vision and so began to seed life on many other worlds only to be harvested like crops or cattle.
Adding to the twist, could say the Wraith also began to look after their cattle, making their society one of peace so they are more docile, removing genetic faults or curing diseases ensuring their 'yield' would be at maximum when the harvest occurred. The method would be similar to Mass Effect 2's Collector style, a cybernetic bug swarm incapacitates the village, the Wraith move in take what they want and move out. Could also say that the ancient gene can't be cloned, its given and if the Wraith get hold of this genetic material well, big bad news!
Explaining why some human worlds fight back (like Sateda) could say that there are still some technologically advanced factions/races around interfering with this long term plan, trying to disrupt it in the short time they have while the Wraith are in torpor.
As to why the Wraith are ineffective in the beginning. After the conflict with the Ancients, the Wraith essentially became harvesters, there was no need for soldiers or battle ships. Over the years the harvesting method became efficient so there was only small disruption (as said above) so a large military wasn't needed. Could also add in some sub species thanks to the genetic modification of their species, so some are more parasitic that take advantage between the great harvest (almost like a scavenger race) whereas others are scary antediluvian from HP Lovecrafts demented nightmares.
Just an idea. :3
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
In sg1 they said that Ancients were "essentially human with few differences". Well those differences must be small as genetic matching must be extremely close for successful mating. Remember they said that some ancients "intermarried with primitive humans?"
On the Wraith..what if they were ancients? Like something similar to the plot in "Pandorum" (the movie)? A ancients ship is lost at space with the crew in stasis -or supposed to be-and is infected there with the eratus bug (it was in the cargo--as in "rats in the hold carrying the plague" type of thing. After somehow "mixing" with an ancients out of stasis, this hybrid then opens more pods to allow more "blendings" = Wraith
Also, if SGA would have continued, do you think the writers would have been lazy enough to lift from sg1 even more? Say have a faction of Wraith who do not feed on humans preferring a synthetic tonic to feed on instead and fight against the other Wraith due to their barbarity (ala the Tok Ra)
On the Wraith..what if they were ancients? Like something similar to the plot in "Pandorum" (the movie)? A ancients ship is lost at space with the crew in stasis -or supposed to be-and is infected there with the eratus bug (it was in the cargo--as in "rats in the hold carrying the plague" type of thing. After somehow "mixing" with an ancients out of stasis, this hybrid then opens more pods to allow more "blendings" = Wraith
Also, if SGA would have continued, do you think the writers would have been lazy enough to lift from sg1 even more? Say have a faction of Wraith who do not feed on humans preferring a synthetic tonic to feed on instead and fight against the other Wraith due to their barbarity (ala the Tok Ra)
shavedape
Well Known GateFan
Meh, the Tok Ra were pussies.
And if SGA would have continued I doubt we would have seen anything as creative as you've laid out because it is obvious that the writing on that show was attenuated and bogged down in nonsense that had nothing to do with the premise of the show. Remember that episode where Keller and McKay go to some science convention thing back on earth? The one with Bill Nye and Dave Foley? That episode was just dumb and filled with crap that had nothing to do with Atlantis. The scene where they're bitching about how flying in a jet causes Global Warming not to mention the lovey dovey kiss kiss "Let's screw!" scene really told me that show had lost its course. Call me a cynic but when it gets that bad there's almost never any fixing it.
Jim of WVa
Well Known GateFan
Meh, the Tok Ra were pussies.
And if SGA would have continued I doubt we would have seen anything as creative as you've laid out because it is obvious that the writing on that show was attenuated and bogged down in nonsense that had nothing to do with the premise of the show. Remember that episode where Keller and McKay go to some science convention thing back on earth? The one with Bill Nye and Dave Foley? That episode was just dumb and filled with crap that had nothing to do with Atlantis. The scene where they're bitching about how flying in a jet causes Global Warming not to mention the lovey dovey kiss kiss "Let's screw!" scene really told me that show had lost its course. Call me a cynic but when it gets that bad there's almost never any fixing it.
The Freeze Lightening episode of SGA was the fault of NBC/Universal, not TPTB of SGA.
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
just me or anyone else remember thinking the ep "misbegotten" when all the 'wraith turned humans" were planted on the forested planet, that it looked a lot like a bunch of old,retired heavy metal dudes at some kind of nature retreat?
and with the long haired wraith turned human, was it intentional to have their human side look like the epitome of Tolkien's "Elvish Beauty"? Those long haired boys are just way to "pretty". Some kind of intentional duality as comment to the barbarity of the wraith? Or just a TPTB "accident"?
and with the long haired wraith turned human, was it intentional to have their human side look like the epitome of Tolkien's "Elvish Beauty"? Those long haired boys are just way to "pretty". Some kind of intentional duality as comment to the barbarity of the wraith? Or just a TPTB "accident"?
Jim of WVa
Well Known GateFan
Just about the only thing on SGA that was not a TPTB accident was the selection of the actors to play characters. Those actors made the characters come alive in a sense that the SGU characters never did.
shavedape
Well Known GateFan
I'm not understanding your point. Are you saying that the SGA producers and writers did not come up with that episode? That someone not working at Bridge Studios wrote it? Please elaborate.
THIS. I think it was true of the original SG-1 cast as well. I still liked it when O'Neill was swapped out but it changed the show a bit. With SGA we had a great cast with Weir, and then I think Sam was not a good choice, but Woolsey improved it a bit. They should have kept Weir IMO. That replicator madness ruined things a bit, as did the constant easy jaunts to earth. SGU to me was a completely different genre unrelated to Stargate.
Jim of WVa
Well Known GateFan
NBC/Universal specified that each of their shows come up with a "Global Warming" episode. Martin Gero wrote the episode "Brain Storm" for SGA's Global Warming episode. All of the other NBC/Universal shows got out of having a Global Warming episode, except for SGA. This was explained in the SGA Season 5 DVD.
http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Freeze_lightning
http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Brain_Storm
shavedape
Well Known GateFan
This.
If they were going to get rid of Weir they should have just given it to Woolsey and left Sam out of it. The season she was in was lame and she was terribly underused. She seemed very out of place. At least with Woolsey they had an interesting character that had room to grow. I liked how he was always such a paper pusher back on Earth but suddenly found himself in command of a far flung outpost. It would have been great to see the character growth there but alas, they blew it.
And the replicator nonsense was beyond lame. It was insulting to us, the viewers, to have them constantly regurgitate that old, tired, boring enemy. (Cheap producing and lazy writing)
And of course the fact that they were in contact with Earth and could even go back and forth between galaxies did much to ruin the show in toto.
--- merged: Feb 13, 2013 at 10:45 PM ---
I'm sorry but I'm not finding anything in those links that states what you're claiming. Do you have a link that shows that NBC had such a dictate for all their shows?
Jim of WVa
Well Known GateFan
I suppose you could listen to Martin Gero's DVD commentary on the episode "Brain Storm."
The following link is about Green Week 2008, but does not mention SGA:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/24229074/#.URyKtR04uyU
shavedape
Well Known GateFan
Oh okay, I see where you're coming from. I vaguely recall that green phase the networks went thru. It was so brief and so lame that I forgot all about it. Still, no direct mention of SGA being forced to write a green episode but it is believable that they'd jump on the bandwagon. Not surprising that the episode we're discussing was such a turd based upon that information.
And Martin Gero can suck my left nut.
SGA could have gone much MUCH longer if there had been more writers with new ideas. There was a wealth of story material in just exploring the city itself which they basically stopped doing after season 1. Why didnt they explore the city more and find cool Ancient tech? Why immediately create the Wraith conflict and write around it like they had done the Goa'uld in SG-1? I mean, this new show was about Atlantis wasnt it? It became more about the Wraith vs Atlantis and the politics of the Pegasus worlds instead of about Atlantis. They never had to regurgitate the Replicators or establish the earth connection or introduce the Genii or add friendly Wraith to the mix.
Yes, we got Todd out of it but did we need him? I dont think so. The Wraith became less scary and easier to kill and they basically took over the show IMO.That huge city and all we saw were some corridors and the big gateroom and the Ancient Archive room and some minor living quarters. Oh, and the sickbay. The exterior views of the city revealed all sorts of structures. How about indoor hydroponics gardens? They could have done some nifty CGI to add glass walls around Planet Vancouver to create the illusion of an indoor forest contained on Atlantis. I have often thought about what was in the buildings in that city. OMNI's art allowed such close inspection of them that I could get lost imagining the interiors of the buildings and what was in them.
And as you said, they blew it.
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
And all of those glass windows on a spaceship (remember Atlantis is a spaceship), just technical laziness, they should have used transparent aluminumSGA could have gone much MUCH longer if there had been more writers with new ideas. There was a wealth of story material in just exploring the city itself which they basically stopped doing after season 1. Why didnt they explore the city more and find cool Ancient tech? Why immediately create the Wraith conflict and write around it like they had done the Goa'uld in SG-1? I mean, this new show was about Atlantis wasnt it? It became more about the Wraith vs Atlantis and the politics of the Pegasus worlds instead of about Atlantis. They never had to regurgitate the Replicators or establish the earth connection or introduce the Genii or add friendly Wraith to the mix.
That huge city and all we saw were some corridors and the big gateroom and the Ancient Archive room and some minor living quarters. Oh, and the sickbay. The exterior views of the city revealed all sorts of structures. How about indoor hydroponics gardens? They could have done some nifty CGI to add glass walls around Planet Vancouver to create the illusion of an indoor forest contained on Atlantis. I have often thought about what was in the buildings in that city. OMNI's art allowed such close inspection of them that I could get lost imagining the interiors of the buildings and what was in them.
And as you said, they blew it.
When did Ark of Truth come out? Is it possible we didn't see more exploration of the city because something really good would of have had to come of the search--or it would be boring--that 'something' may have been a powerful tech capable of defeating the Ori and that was one corner they were written in to by having the Ori be SG1's gig.
They could have easily had either show deal with either threat--say, a weapon against the Ori could have been found on Atl. and the SGC could have helped in fighting the wraith. The cross over ep where sg1 comes to Atl to find Merlin's weapon was kind of silly in that it showed everyone in Atl all kicked back and taking it easy when they are still under threat from the wraith. I forget the exact Atl timeline that the ep takes place in, but it didn't make sense from that point and-why come all the way to Atlantis just so they could ask the hologram/ascended ancient in hiding about Merle's weapon? Just sen a message through the gate and have Weir do it.
Like I was saying with the "pretty boy" wraith turned humans of possibly being used to show a "angelic/demonic" duality was a good angle (if that was the intention and not just a fate of casting coincidence) they never played any of those things to their possibilities. I never saw the Wraith as "bug that took on human dna through ingestion "type thing as credible. To of had then been totally human first and then corrupted by the Eratus bug would have been far better. This way they could have been the "only living ancients" (a nice fit with the angelic aura the long hair wraith to humans projected), an irony in its fullest; the sgc personnel have been trying to make contact with a living ancient and they find them in the form of demon wraith. A nice parallel to Tolkien's Elves to Orcs corruption by evil play.
So think retcon for any future SG anything involving the Pegasus galaxy
ParagonPie
Well Known GateFan
I think one of the major problem as mentioned before somewhere was the lack of 'plausible world building' going on with SGA, it continued over again from SG1. The problem that they've always had, is they add one thing in without adding a value or realizing the effects of such an encounter on the political, strategic and galactic scape of things. It was simply, add this in because it was cool, oh wait they are now over powered, better nerf them to buggery. The episodes First Contact and Lost Tribe is a prime example, adding in a kick ass new race that then suddenly gets the holy retard brick to the head then they lose all that ability in the space of ten minutes, or next episode.
They were supposed to be at war. I wanted to see the Atlantis crew building alliances with the hidden technological races (that were oh so many yet we didn't see any of them), stop with the whole 'only we can save you' stuff which grew sickening. Also, when you have a war, actually make it a war, a long drawn out bloody conflict that will last for some time. The end of SGA could of been, ok we've defeated the Wraith, but they will still be around for generations to come. Also No more bloody god dam magical plot devices that solve the problem in the last 2 minutes, you have a problem? Couldn't solve it? So what, deal with the consequences of failure, work through the adversity. And naturally give the rest of the damned team something to do, the annoying fact that it was always Rodney who solved things grew beyond tiresome (which is why I liked the episode Trinity because he failed in that, showed the reasoning of Shepard also).
Babylon 5 and DS9 showed great examples of how to win a war while at great cost to the individual and group as a whole, I kind of wanted to see more of that within SGA, little more pragmatism. My opinion I know
They were supposed to be at war. I wanted to see the Atlantis crew building alliances with the hidden technological races (that were oh so many yet we didn't see any of them), stop with the whole 'only we can save you' stuff which grew sickening. Also, when you have a war, actually make it a war, a long drawn out bloody conflict that will last for some time. The end of SGA could of been, ok we've defeated the Wraith, but they will still be around for generations to come. Also No more bloody god dam magical plot devices that solve the problem in the last 2 minutes, you have a problem? Couldn't solve it? So what, deal with the consequences of failure, work through the adversity. And naturally give the rest of the damned team something to do, the annoying fact that it was always Rodney who solved things grew beyond tiresome (which is why I liked the episode Trinity because he failed in that, showed the reasoning of Shepard also).
Babylon 5 and DS9 showed great examples of how to win a war while at great cost to the individual and group as a whole, I kind of wanted to see more of that within SGA, little more pragmatism. My opinion I know
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
I think one of the major problem as mentioned before somewhere was the lack of 'plausible world building' going on with SGA, it continued over again from SG1. The problem that they've always had, is they add one thing in without adding a value or realizing the effects of such an encounter on the political, strategic and galactic scape of things. It was simply, add this in because it was cool, oh wait they are now over powered, better nerf them to buggery. The episodes First Contact and Lost Tribe is a prime example, adding in a kick ass new race that then suddenly gets the holy retard brick to the head then they lose all that ability in the space of ten minutes, or next episode.
They were supposed to be at war. I wanted to see the Atlantis crew building alliances with the hidden technological races (that were oh so many yet we didn't see any of them), stop with the whole 'only we can save you' stuff which grew sickening. Also, when you have a war, actually make it a war, a long drawn out bloody conflict that will last for some time. The end of SGA could of been, ok we've defeated the Wraith, but they will still be around for generations to come. Also No more bloody god dam magical plot devices that solve the problem in the last 2 minutes, you have a problem? Couldn't solve it? So what, deal with the consequences of failure, work through the adversity. And naturally give the rest of the damned team something to do, the annoying fact that it was always Rodney who solved things grew beyond tiresome (which is why I liked the episode Trinity because he failed in that, showed the reasoning of Shepard also).
Babylon 5 and DS9 showed great examples of how to win a war while at great cost to the individual and group as a whole, I kind of wanted to see more of that within SGA, little more pragmatism. My opinion I know
Yes, that did/does get irritating. Though, don't forget, McKay did blow up a solar system. Every time they got close to acquiring another ZPM something came up--all irritating as well.
To my bolded above, and, not trying to say it was all good-since it wasn't--but SGU did sometimes show failure and the cost of it. But with so many other issues and that show, they tried a "bit of this and a bit of that"-some good ideas from the previous shows, that were just mishandled in the writing and execution of the show.
--- merged: Feb 15, 2013 at 6:20 PM ---
I was just looking through 'stargate wikia' and found this bit in the Atl section on 'todd the wraith'
Is it "true"- I don't recall the team returning to Pegasus after "enemy at the gate". I thought they just parked it in SF Bay? Or was this somehow passed on in SGU?
Or is it just a bit a "wishful BS" that someone typed into the wikia?
Todd provided the expedition with two ZPMs so it could fly to Earth and battlethe Hive before it attacked. Atlantis landed on Earth after the Hive had been destroyed and Todd was still in custody. (ATL: "Vegas", "Enemy at the Gate")
After putting Todd into stasis to keep him alive without dealing with the ethical issue of whether or not to feed him, he was released after the expedition had returned to Pegasus and were investigating reports of a new Wraith Queen, known as 'Queen Death'. When studying a holographic projection left by Queen Death, Todd appeared to be slightly attracted to her image, but he was recovered by Wraith responding to the message's activation before Sheppard could question him about Queen Death's implied status in Wraith mythology.