Deep Space Nine: The only Star Trek series to end cleanly.

[Overmind One]

I just finished my week-long rewatch of Deep Space Nine. All 7 seasons of it. You know what I realized? This is the only Star trek series which was ended cleanly, without Deus Ex Machina, and the preceding episodes led up to and finished the series in a final fashion not shared by the other series. Star Trek TNG the TV series was left intentionally hanging to make way for the movies which came later. Enterprise was abruptly ended, Voyager managed an ending, but it was a Deus Ex Machina IMO.

Something about the interpersonal drama in DS9, the decidedly alien space station, the intrigue and the appearance of every species of Trek alien seen in previous series (plus more), the space battles and the planetary scenes, I think it may be the best Trek ever produced for TV. Perhaps its just because I am sitting here feeling satisfied at that ending, fresh off viewing it. Anybody watch this show when it was on or since?

 

[Gatefan1976]

Errr................
YES.

 

[Overmind One]

Errr................
YES.

At times, it was weak, but overall, it was really a pretty well defined arc. Perhaps that is because they based it loosely on Babylon 5?

 

[Bluce Ree]

I just finished my week-long rewatch of Deep Space Nine. All 7 seasons of it. You know what I realized? This is the only Star trek series which was ended cleanly, without Deus Ex Machina, [...]

Except for Sisko ending up with the wormhole aliens.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Except for Sisko ending up with the wormhole aliens.

That was BUILT into the series from the first time he met them dude.............

 

[Bluce Ree]

That was BUILT into the series from the first time he met them dude.............

Beings living in what is essentially a black hole with its center pushed open by exotic matter. Yeah, no Deus Ex Machina there.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Beings living in what is essentially a black hole with its center pushed open by exotic matter. Yeah, no Deus Ex Machina there.

Dude, it would be DEM if it came out of nowhere, but no matter how outlandish the idea of the prophets were, they were IMBEDDED in the series from the beginning.
That may be bad storytelling, but it's not DEM.

 

[Bluce Ree]

Dude, it would be DEM if it came out of nowhere, but no matter how outlandish the idea of the prophets were, they were IMBEDDED in the series from the beginning.
That may be bad storytelling, but it's not DEM.

Sisko ending up living in a wormhole isn't? Ok.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Sisko ending up living in a wormhole isn't? Ok.

Not in context, no

DEM is a wormhole drive that comes out of nowhere, NOT something that has existed since day dot.

 

[Bluce Ree]

Not in context, no

DEM is a wormhole drive that comes out of nowhere, NOT something that has existed since day dot.

Ok, I got you.

 

[Overmind One]

Sisko ending up living in a wormhole isn't? Ok.

Its only Deus Ex Machina when it comes from nowhere and suddenly solves the problem/ends the story/wraps up loose ends. Bobby Ewing coming back in Dallas was a Deus Ex Machina. It might not have been if the "it was all a dream" thing had been used elsewhere in the series multiple times. In Continuum, Kiera's suit could be considered a Deus Ex Machina if it was indestructible. It would make her Wonder Woman. But they pass it off as tech and it works. Deep Space Nine wrote the Prophets and the wormhole into the series from the beginning. Several times during the show the wormhole aliens intervened, they were held hostage by a Pa-Wraith, and they returned somebody who had been held there into the present (The Emissary). In Voyager, Species 8472 supposedly came from "fluidic space" accessed by a a controlled rift in subspace. Why not aliens living in a wormhole? They kept Sisko there with them.
--- merged: Sep 18, 2013 at 11:09 PM ---

Not in context, no

DEM is a wormhole drive that comes out of nowhere, NOT something that has existed since day dot.

LOL, you posted this whilst I was writing a response. I agree with you here. Only when it comes from "nowhere".

 

[Bluce Ree]

Sorry, guys, you're absolutely right. Forgive my absent mind. I've been up since 5am this morning and my wife isn't here to help me "clear my mind" for at least another 10 days. I tend to get pretty backed up if I don't have my regular maintenance run with the wife.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Its only Deus Ex Machina when it comes from nowhere and suddenly solves the problem/ends the story/wraps up loose ends. Bobby Ewing coming back in Dallas was a Deus Ex Machina.

Exactly, It's about context.

It might not have been if the "it was all a dream" thing had been used elsewhere in the series multiple times.

Ergh, I HATED the "Sisko is in an Asylum" shit, especially the one in S7 *as individual episodes* but within the story, and having the pa-wraith screw with him, they make sense.

In Continuum, Kiera's suit could be considered a Deus Ex Machina if it was indestructible.

No, disagree. The suit existed from day dot as well, so even with Super-duper powers, its OK *AS LONG AS IT REMAINS IN CONTEXT*

It would make her Wonder Woman. But they pass it off as tech and it works.

They make it fallable, and therefore more believable, which was a good call.

Deep Space Nine wrote the Prophets and the wormhole into the series from the beginning. Several times during the show the wormhole aliens intervened, they were held hostage by a Pa-Wraith, and they returned somebody who had been held there into the present (The Emissary). In Voyager, Species 8472 supposedly came from "fluidic space" accessed by a a controlled rift in subspace. Why not aliens living in a wormhole? They kept Sisko there with them.

They operate (the prophets) on a different level, so I don't mind em. Same way I don't mind the Ancients in SG, or Q, or the Vorlons in B5.
All *I* ask is that whatever plot device you want to use, you make it consistant within your story.
--- merged: Sep 18, 2013 at 11:18 PM ---

Sorry, guys, you're absolutely right. Forgive my absent mind. I've been up since 5am this morning and my wife isn't here to help me "clear my mind" for at least another 10 days. I tend to get pretty backed up if I don't have my regular maintenance run with the wife.

Only 5???
PUSSY!!!

 

[Overmind One]

Exactly, It's about context.

Ergh, I HATED the "Sisko is in an Asylum" shit, especially the one in S7 *as individual episodes* but within the story, and having the pa-wraith screw with him, they make sense.

I did too. Its fresh in my mind still. Why did they make D'Mar a human in that asylum scene? Sure, it made that (stupid) cell scene with the story on the wall seem more coherent, but they could have chosen any other human character. Like Dr Bashir.

No, disagree. The suit existed from day dot as well, so even with Super-duper powers, its OK *AS LONG AS IT REMAINS IN CONTEXT*

I didnt say I thought it was a Deus Ex Machina, I said I would feel it was if it were indestructible. You just cant go around making things "indestructible" in science fiction.

They make it fallable, and therefore more believable, which was a good call.

Yep.

They operate (the prophets) on a different level, so I don't mind em. Same way I don't mind the Ancients in SG, or Q, or the Vorlons in B5.
All *I* ask is that whatever plot device you want to use, you make it consistant within your story.

Well, Trelaine was the original Q and although he was very very powerful, he was not "omnipotent". I could never accept the Q as being omnipotent. Even the Ancients and the Vorlons and the Ori and the Organians were not omnipotent. Loved the Vorlons, not so much for the Ancients, definitely not the Q.

 

[Gatefan1976]

I did too. Its fresh in my mind still. Why did they make D'Mar a human in that asylum scene? Sure, it made that (stupid) cell scene with the story on the wall seem more coherent, but they could have chosen any other human character. Like Dr Bashir.

Because Damar, like Sisko is the living embodiment of the Pa-Wraith/Prophets. It's a battle of wills dude given a physical, and therefore externally viewable form.

I didnt say I thought it was a Deus Ex Machina, I said I would feel it was if it were indestructible. You just cant go around making things "indestructible" in science fiction.

Sure, I made that distinction as well.

Well, Trelaine was the original Q and although he was very very powerful, he was not "omnipotent". I could never accept the Q as being omnipotent. Even the Ancients and the Vorlons and the Ori and the Organians were not omnipotent. Loved the Vorlons, not so much for the Ancients, definitely not the Q.

[/quote]
But they are not *supposed* to be classic "omnipotence". They operate on a higher level of understanding, one where they can click their fingers and change the gravitational constant of the universe ( ) They exist beyond our science and understanding of the universe. They are not "gods", but for all intents an purposes...........

 

[Overmind One]

Because Damar, like Sisko is the living embodiment of the Pa-Wraith/Prophets. It's a battle of wills dude given a physical, and therefore externally viewable form.



Sure, I made that distinction as well.

But they are not *supposed* to be classic "omnipotence". They operate on a higher level of understanding, one where they can click their fingers and change the gravitational constant of the universe ( ) They exist beyond our science and understanding of the universe. They are not "gods", but for all intents an purposes...........

FFS, they made the Q in TNG the exact same beings as Samantha's family on Bewitched. . We had Q snapping his fingers to turn people into "Terrelian amoebas" and such, the catty female Q seen on Voyager could have easily been one of Samantha's evil cousins playing mischief, and even the humor was similar. I was waiting for the bumbling Q to show up who would accidentally materialize inside the warp core, or couldnt walk through walls...like Aunt Clara. Of course, they could say that Samantha and the "witches" on earth were actually Q from another time?

 

[Gatefan1976]

FFS, they made the Q in TNG the exact same beings as Samantha's family on Bewitched. .

I don't why you see this a such a problem.
Star trek has an core belief in "seeing what is out there", to go "beyond our understanding", yet when you are given it, you rail against it!!
We cannot explain everything dude.

We had Q snapping his fingers to turn people into "Terrelian amoebas" and such, the catty female Q seen on Voyager could have easily been one of Samantha's evil cousins playing mischief, and even the humor was similar.

To TEACH a lesson, that just because you have power, does not mean you have the responsibility to use it!!
Remember, you only get Q and his wife and child *after* there has been a fundamental shift in Q thinking (the other Q's suicide).
I mean, you can easily say I am making "excuses", but the shift in Q thinking is not a "sudden DEM thing", it is a cause and effect consequence of dealing with representatives of our race. (See, even in the future we can turn people into dicks )

I was waiting for the bumbling Q to show up who would accidentally materialize inside the warp core, or couldnt walk through walls...like Aunt Clara. Of course, they could say that Samantha and the "witches" on earth were actually Q from another time?

Ergh.

 

[shavedape]

I couldn't get past Avery Brooks wooden acting style. The door knobs in my house emote more than he does. It was painful to sit thru his scenes. Didn't care for Odo at all either. He was the Neelix of DS9.

The only good parts of that show were Quark and some of the Cardassian stuff. The guy who was the tailor had an interesting story line worth watching.

And don't even get me going about the Bajorans. They should have nuked that planet from orbit and been done with it.

 

[Overmind One]

I couldn't get past Avery Brooks wooden acting style. The door knobs in my house emote more than he does. It was painful to sit thru his scenes. Didn't care for Odo at all either. He was the Neelix of DS9.

The only good parts of that show were Quark and some of the Cardassian stuff. The guy who was the tailor had an interesting story line worth watching.

And don't even get me going about the Bajorans. They should have nuked that planet from orbit and been done with it.

Really? You sure you have seen DS9? Rom would be the Neelix of DS9. Quark was a great character, but Dax and Kira and Odo and even Worf and Martok and the Dominion characters like the Weyouns and the Gem Hadar...central to the overall arc of the story. DS9 could not be made without having a Bajor.

 

[Overmind One]

I don't why you see this a such a problem.
Star trek has an core belief in "seeing what is out there", to go "beyond our understanding", yet when you are given it, you rail against it!!
We cannot explain everything dude.

To TEACH a lesson, that just because you have power, does not mean you have the responsibility to use it!!
Remember, you only get Q and his wife and child *after* there has been a fundamental shift in Q thinking (the other Q's suicide).
I mean, you can easily say I am making "excuses", but the shift in Q thinking is not a "sudden DEM thing", it is a cause and effect consequence of dealing with representatives of our race. (See, even in the future we can turn people into dicks )


Ergh.

Come on. Q claimed that the Q had been around for "billions of years" and they could do things by simply changing the laws of physics or "changing the coefficient of the Universe" and such. Aunt Kathy? Q babies playing with Moons by knocking them out of orbit?