Why Star Trek can't go past the Voyager timeline without becoming silly

[Overmind One]

Funny thing is. the couple of times they handled time travel on Voyager outside of the finale they actually did pretty good at it. Future's End was a fun adventure let them get the Doctor off the holodeck, while Relativity was nice because instead of being a typical time travel adventure it was about fixing the deleterious effects of time travel (restoring the timeline).

And I agree that with the Voyager tech the Federation is way too powerful. At this point in order to actually have challenges in their universe you would need a ridiculously powerful adversary. It's the Thor problem (from the Marvel films) in Star Trek form.

Actually, Endgame Parts 1 and 2 are my favorite Voyager episodes. I have to hand it to Kate Mulgrew for giving us the arrogant and self assured stubborn Admiral Janeway who takes risks and is as salty as a pretzel. Playing against her more sensible contemporary self, she convincingly gives us two distinct characters who interact and have conflicts and a reconciliation. Her scenes with the Queen were classic IMO.

I like your Thor analogy. It seems to me that these writers seem to think they have to outdo themselves with each story they tell. I mentioned here jokingly that things have gone too far when you have superheroes playing basketball with planets , but that seems to be where things are headed. Whereas Enterprise reached back in time to fill in the past, and Deep Space Nine made a lateral to tell the story about a Federation space station in the TNG time frame, Voyager was in the Delta Quadrant for all of the Dominion War and the fall of the Cardassian Empire. By the time she made it home, Captain Picard had gotten the Enterprise E. Nemesis is the furthest point we have in the contemporary timeline, but it seems to me that Voyager is the most powerful and most advanced ship in the fleet now, not the Enterprise. It's confusing!

 

[YJ02]

Plus, remember that the entire Temporal Cold War was erased from history in Part Two of the Season 4 episode of Enterprise named "Storm Front". All that remains is the Braxton type Federation timeships from Voyager.

yes--but the future itself is still there along with its "new" predicaments. I am just saying they could go with the characters/ideas that have already been intro'd

 

[YJ02]

would not be that much more of a threat

there will always be new threats--there is still a lot of the galaxy that the federation has not yet been to

the gamma is dominion space still and the delta is only known in as much as the voyager obtained of it or lifted from borg and other databases

bottom line; the writes of any new show can just make up any new alien race they want and make them as powerful as they want-or else why would anyone watch?

 

[YJ02]

The Federation would never ban that armor

say the FED-being the political and civvie arm of things, always seem to not want any member of the fed to have any kind of advantage over any other member--so they insist on giving it to all or banning it

and then say that STARFLEET-having become more militarized after the Borg and the DOMINION WAR,DO NOT WANT to give this Janeway tech to any other members of the fed, but instead maintain an earth/FED core world first attitude

that is what i am speaking of

that would be interesting to me (and BTW, i grew rather weary of characters going on how SF "is not a military organization" with all of the destruction they rain down all across the galaxy--all in self defense of course) as a viewer

 

[Overmind One]

say the FED-being the political and civvie arm of things, always seem to not want any member of the fed to have any kind of advantage over any other member--so they insist on giving it to all or banning it

and then say that STARFLEET-having become more militarized after the Borg and the DOMINION WAR,DO NOT WANT to give this Janeway tech to any other members of the fed, but instead maintain an earth/FED core world first attitude

that is what i am speaking of
that would be interesting to me (and BTW, i grew rather weary of characters going on how SF "is not a military organization" with all of the destruction they rain down all across the galaxy--all in self defense of course) as a viewer

Well, from what they have established about that armor, it uses the shield emitters to create replicated armor, and that armor can be physically "ablated" (broken away). This would mean that the Klingons could not use the armor and also cloak at the same time. I think their already existing agreement with the Federation regarding cloaking technology would satisfy the Klingons. But that is just a guess, based on what I have seen. The same goes for the Romulans. But they are not Federation members, only allies with non-aggression treaties keeping the peace.

Now those transphasic torpedoes...and the databases for the slipstream, Borg transwarp and even the slingshot thingie they encountered.... I think Seven of Nine would become an individual of great importance to the Federation and especially to Earth.

 

[Overmind One]

there will always be new threats--there is still a lot of the galaxy that the federation has not yet been to

the gamma is dominion space still and the delta is only known in as much as the voyager obtained of it or lifted from borg and other databases

bottom line; the writes of any new show can just make up any new alien race they want and make them as powerful as they want-or else why would anyone watch?

This is something else I have an issue with. Why did they name the Quadrants out of order? In Star Trek, we have the Alpha Quadrant, The Beta Quadrant, the Delta Quadrant and the Gamma Quadrant. Why did they skip C, E and F? The Beta Quadrant is where Vulcan, Quo'nos and Cardassia and the Romulans are.

 

[Joelist]

Don't forget the Dominion surrendered as did Cardassia at the end of DS9. So both of those areas are under at least temporary Federation-Klingon-Romulan occupation.

 

[Overmind One]

Don't forget the Dominion surrendered as did Cardassia at the end of DS9. So both of those areas are under at least temporary Federation-Klingon-Romulan occupation.

DS9 is the only Star Trek TV series that could be continued easily. Enterprise is ended at the establishment of the Federation for the most part. Then TOS picks it up. TNG ended in the movie when Enterprise D was destroyed, and the latest TNG crew is in the post Voyager era and it cannot logically continue (because of Voyager's return). DS9, however, can continue with a new cast not including Odo (or they could even bring back a new shapeshifter) or even Odo as a guest character. Sisko could be brought out of the wormhome too.

 

[Bluce Ree]

DS9 is the only Star Trek TV series that could be continued easily. Enterprise is ended at the establishment of the Federation for the most part. Then TOS picks it up. TNG ended in the movie when Enterprise D was destroyed, and the latest TNG crew is in the post Voyager era and it cannot logically continue (because of Voyager's return). DS9, however, can continue with a new cast not including Odo (or they could even bring back a new shapeshifter or even Odo as a guest character. Sisko could be brought out of the wormhome too.

Please don't suggest continuing DS9. I mean EVER!

 

[Joelist]

Please don't suggest continuing DS9. I mean EVER!

Agreed. It was a bad show where the ratings may have been ok but it did a lot of damage to Trek.

 

[shavedape]

I thoroughly disliked DS9 and even went so far as to stop watching it eventually. I don't think it jibed at all with the ST-verse. It was weird and had some incredibly lame characters (Quark was good though) along with a stupid central plot. Terrible, terrible show.

 

[Overmind One]

Please don't suggest continuing DS9. I mean EVER!

Agreed. It was a bad show where the ratings may have been ok but it did a lot of damage to Trek.

I thoroughly disliked DS9 and even went so far as to stop watching it eventually. I don't think it jibed at all with the ST-verse. It was weird and had some incredibly lame characters (Quark was good though) along with a stupid central plot. Terrible, terrible show.

Really? I liked it a lot. I especially liked it when the Defiant was added. All of the stuff in Season 7 was lame to me, with the Pa-Wraiths and the Prophets, but the Dominion War was a highlight for me. What I liked about it was that it was undeniably Star Trek (universe), but was not based on a ship. Adding the ship made it complete. Also, the wide variety of Terran and other alien species who were civilians and not part of a military force necessarily. I don't know that I would push to continue it, but of all the series that came before, DS9 is the only one that could continue.

 

[Joelist]

To me DS9 badly got away from the spirit of Trek and the underlying mood. I alluded to it a while ago in a post about what makes Trek Trek. So, I am going to quote myself somewhat here.

Point one: To me, Trek has a “spirit” or “mood” that is essential to it working properly. That is a mood of underlying optimism and also of wonder – the feel that we are going “where no one has gone before”. TOS captured this well (after all as the original series it established it). TNG while having its bad moments overall kept to this. So did Voyager (an underrated series in my estimation). Without this optimism and sense of wonder and exploration Trek just does not work.

Point Two: Based on the above point, to me Trek started to run off the proverbial rails with DS9, starting in the second half of Season 2.This is because Deep Space 9 started becoming more and more moody, dark, “edgy”(a catchphrase for overwrought characters) and instead of a sense of wonder and exploration we got power politics, genocide, murder of main characters, shipping, and an overall foreboding feel to the show. I know many think DS9 was some sort of pinnacle of Trek and its ratings were healthy – and had they left the dark, moody slop with DS9 it’s possible Trek on TV may have survived. But they didn’t as we will see.

Point Three: Enterprise after starting with an honest attempt to create again the wonder and exploration degenerated late in Season 2 and through Season 3 into dark, moody, shipping infested slop. IMHO they were trying to boost it by giving it some “DS9” spirit – the result was actually robbing the show of any chance of having an identity of its own. Enterprise died (and yes the finale was insulting). But the final depths were still to be plumbed….

Point Four: Star Trek Nemesis (spit). This is the worst piece of Trek ever committed to any sort of medium. It tried to capture the Wrath of Khan character dynamic but TWOK still had a sense of wonder (Kirk’s whole reaction to the Genesis experiment) and all in all was still optimistic. Nemesis was DARK (death, mass murder, rape, more death), moody slop. The fact that most of the cast performances screamed “I’m here for a paycheck” didn’t help. It especially didn’t help that the character of Shinzon came off as a Trek version of Doctor Evil from Austin Powers.

My point so far is Trek killed itself by getting away from its own core values (Optimism, wonder, bonds of friendship, etc.). It became dark and moody which won’t work in the Trek universe premise. And it was DS9 that sent it down the dark road of despair.

 

[Bluce Ree]

Really? I liked it a lot. I especially liked it when the Defiant was added. All of the stuff in Season 7 was lame to me, with the Pa-Wraiths and the Prophets, but the Dominion War was a highlight for me. What I liked about it was that it was undeniably Star trek (universe), but was not based on a ship. Adding the ship made it complete. Also, the wide variety of Terran and other alien species who were civilians and not part of a military force necessarily. I don't know that I would push to continue it, but of all the series that came before, DS9 is the only one that could continue.

DS9 was a giant soap opera. It spent MORE time exploring feelings and relationships than even SGU. In fact, it made SGU downright interesting by comparison.

 

[Overmind One]

DS9 was a giant soap opera. It spent MORE time exploring feelings and relationships than even SGU. In fact, it made SGU downright interesting by comparison.

Really? I would not even compare SGU with DS9. NuBSG? Yeah. I dunno, the stories were never only about relationships. There was no closet-like scenes, no random boobie scenes where some woman is literally standing there posing, no truly dumb storylines. It was definitely a left turn for Star Trek, but for me that was okay. I guess my love for Babylon 5 did that. I always thought of DS9 as a Trek version of the same story (which it actually mostly was).

 

[shavedape]

#1. I couldn't give a shit about Bajor (sp?) or the Bajorans.

#2. I couldn't give a shit about the wormhole and/or the Prophets.

#3. I despised the stupid shipping. Seriously despised it. That was not Star Trek.

Basically the writers took what should have been a single episode story, the Bajorans and the Prophets, and stretched it across the entire run of the show. I like Louise Fletcher but quickly tired of her playing the evil bitch every time she appeared in a scene in this show. It just was not that interesting of a story line. And a majority of the characters were unlikable and/or downright boring. (The exception being Quark and Elim Garak.)

 

[Overmind One]

#1. I couldn't give a shit about Bajor (sp?) or the Bajorans.

#2. I couldn't give a shit about the wormhole and/or the Prophets.

#3. I despised the stupid shipping. Seriously despised it. That was not Star Trek.

Basically the writers took what should have been a single episode story, the Bajorans and the Prophets, and stretched it across the entire run. I like Louise Fletcher but quickly tired of her playing the evil bitch every time she appeared in a scene in this show. It just was not that interesting of a story line. And a majority of the characters were unlikable and/or downright boring. (The exception being Quark and Elim Garak.)

I was not understanding why the Bajorans were created in the first place in TNG. Ensign Ro was good as the fiery Bajoran, and she actually reminds me a lot of how B'Elanna played her part in Voyager. But the whole Bajoran planet with Vedics and heavy theocracy seemed odd to me for an advanced race. Then again, they had physical gods in the Prophets which would definitely provide a continued basis for deep religion in a spacefaring society. I do not see how they could have beat the Cardassians on any level, considering that we saw no advanced Bajoran weaponry (past or present Bajor).

I thought the Prophets were interesting, but they were used as a Deus Ex Machina throughout the whole show. Their relationship with Sisko made no sense. But then again, this was a parallel of Babylon 5 in a loose sort of way.

The shipping...yep, that was dumb. Kira with Odo? Really? Worf and Dax was ok, but Cassie and Sisko? That fell flat as did the Jennifer storyline. Rom and Leeta? Dumb...almost clownlike.

But the battles, the whole Dominion War arc and the politics I thought was better fleshed out than in any other Trek series. The battles had a purpose and were full military operations and not just dogfights between starships. It was "epic" in a way not done in any of the other shows.

 

[Bluce Ree]

Really? I would not even compare SGU with DS9. NuBSG? Yeah. I dunno, the stories were never only about relationships.

Methinks you were watching a different show. It was ALL about relationships. Kira and her constantly changing love interest, the O'Brien marriage problems, baby problems, Sisco and his relationship with his son, Quark and Rom, Quark and Odo, Kira and Odo, Rom and his son Nog, Worf and Dax, Dax and everyone, wormhole Prophets, etc, etc, etc. It was one, long, gigantic soap. The Dominion war was thrown in there to try winning back dwindling ratings *because* they had gotten too lost in the soapiness.

Please don't ever compare DS9 to Babylon 5. Babylon 5 was a well written, well fleshed out story arc that did not spend obscene amounts of time focusing on stupid storylines, like going solar sailing with your son for an entire episode.

 

[Bluce Ree]

#1. I couldn't give a shit about Bajor (sp?) or the Bajorans.

#2. I couldn't give a shit about the wormhole and/or the Prophets.

#3. I despised the stupid shipping. Seriously despised it. That was not Star Trek.

Basically the writers took what should have been a single episode story, the Bajorans and the Prophets, and stretched it across the entire run of the show. I like Louise Fletcher but quickly tired of her playing the evil bitch every time she appeared in a scene in this show. It just was not that interesting of a story line. And a majority of the characters were unlikable and/or downright boring. (The exception being Quark and Elim Garak.)

What was sad is that they even managed to castrate Worf.

 

[Overmind One]

Methinks you were watching a different show. It was ALL about relationships. Kira and her constantly changing love interest, the O'Brien marriage problems, baby problems, Sisco and his relationship with his son, Quark and Rom, Quark and Odo, Kira and Odo, Rom and his son Nog, Worf and Dax, Dax and everyone, wormhole Prophets, etc, etc, etc. It was one, long, gigantic soap. The Dominion war was thrown in there to try winning back dwindling ratings *because* they had gotten too lost in the soapiness.

Please don't ever compare DS9 to Babylon 5. Babylon 5 was a well written, well fleshed out story arc that did not spend obscene amounts of time focusing on stupid storylines, like going solar sailing with your son for an entire episode.

It was not my favorite Star Trek show, but I found it immensely more watchable than Enterprise. I just recently did a full rewatch of DS9 and TNG. The most pathetic of soap in Star Trek can be given a name: Deanna Troi.