Star Trek VOY: General Discussion Thread
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Gatefan1976
Well Known GateFan
Mine too!!
She seemed the most intelligent, most well balanced, most principled Captain in all of Trek IMO.
Gatefan1976
Well Known GateFan
I dunno about principled dude, she broke the SF rules when needed, and even sometimes when it was unneeded. I'd go with realist before principled, dispite her many rants about doing things The Starfleet Way.
Gatefan1976
Well Known GateFan
It's a pity more stuff like Y.O.H. did not happen on Voyager, but Paramount desperately wanted to get back to the pure episodic stuff after DS9, which is a pity because I feel that Voy probably would have done better with a better combination of stand alone and arc'ed eps.
Yes she did. But she was less prone to dump the Prime Directive than say Kirk or Picard or Sisko or even Archer. But Admiral Janeway from Endgame was way more adventurous. Almost arrogant.
It looked good on her.
As far as I can recall she only violated the Prime Directive a couple of times, and in both cases it was justified. One was the Omega situation where by express Starfleet orders the Prime Directive was suspended and the other was the series premiere - and her argument that the Directive was mooted by the actions of the Caretaker was valid.
Overall, they wrote Janeway as keeping more to the spirit of the regulations than the exact letter that is true. And she also had to adapt the regulations in some places because of the situation Voyager was in.
I like the way Overmind put it - she was the best balanced captain in Star Trek.
Overall, they wrote Janeway as keeping more to the spirit of the regulations than the exact letter that is true. And she also had to adapt the regulations in some places because of the situation Voyager was in.
I like the way Overmind put it - she was the best balanced captain in Star Trek.
Gatefan1976
Well Known GateFan
Not written by me:
Caretaker
In this, let us remember that the Prime Directive states that interference with the natural development of any race which possesses a lower level of technology than the Federation is strictly forbidden. Had Captain Janeway not interfered, the Kazon would have taken possession of the Array, this being the natural course of events for their race given the circumstances. Captain Janeway's destruction of the Array was therefore a clear violation of the Prime Directive. Captain Janeway's claim that by destroying she was protecting the Ocampa is mere fabrication, as we have seen.
Jetrel
Captain Janeway allowed a known war criminal of a race with a lower level of technology than that of Voyager use of the Sickbay and the transporter. Her logs indicate that she sympathized with him, as he was trying to undo damage he had done, but the fact remains that she aided and abetted a criminal and violated the Prime Directive.
Prototype
The Voyager crew beamed aboard a deactivated robot and Janeway allowed Torres to try to reactivate it, using Federation technology. Once revived, the robot insisted that Torres build a prototype power module for the construction of additional units. Belatedly Janeway insisted that this was a violation of the Prime Directive, but the robot kidnapped Torres. Once aboard their ship Torres created the power units they needed, only to destroy them when she found out their true plans. The fact that the technology was destroyed does not excuse the original Prime Directive Violation.
Basics
By surrendering Voyager to the Kazon rather than destroying her, Janeway not only violated the Prime Directive by placing all of Voyager's technology in the hands of the Kazon, but conducted herself in a way unbefitting an officer, showed her unfitness for command and aided and abetted the enemy.
Swarm
Captain Janeway willfully invaded an alien realm of space and proceeded to destroys hundreds, if not thousand of their vessels - thus changing the balance of power in that section of space, ignoring the rules and culture of a sentient alien race and breaking the Prime Directive.
Scorpion
Captain Janeway made a deal with the Borg, confirmed enemies of the Federation, to help them destroy an enemy of their own in exchange for free passage through their space. Her reason for striking this deal is quite clear: passage through this particular area of the Delta Quadrant was the shortest route to the Alpha Quadrant. Going around Borg space would add decades to their journey. Although the deal Captain Janeway struck with the Borg did gain them the passage they needed, the Borg subsequently turned on them, becoming once again the enemy of Voyager. In addition, Janeway made a powerful enemy of the species she helped the Borg to defeat: a species the Borg designate 8472. This incident once again brings into question Captain Janeway's fitness for command as well as her original decision to strand her ship and crew in the Delta Quadrant, not to mention she broke the Prime Directive once again by interfering in the cultures and problems of Species8472 and The Borg - her decision to help the Borg led to millions more races being assimilated(as seen in 'Hope and Fear') and several thousand alien cultures ceasing to exist.
Demon
Captain Janeway allowed a pre-sentient lifeform to sample the Voyager crew's DNA. The pre-sentient "silver blood" lifeforms became humanoid as a result, and quickly mimicked the crew's mannerisms, memories, and technology. The Prime Directive is designed to prevent interference with the development of lifeforms less advanced than those of the Federation. Most often, alleged violations of the Directive arise from technology transfer or the exposure of pre-warp civilizations to the existence of alien life. The violation here, in many ways, is much more severe, as the evolution of an entire species, not merely the development of a civilization, was irrevocably altered by Janeway's callous actions. Indeed, there is anecdotal evidence, not corroborated in Voyager's logs, indicating that these lifeforms came to believe that they were in fact Voyager's crew, and they all died in a futile attempted to return to Earth. If true, this underscores the importance of the Prime Directive and the terrible consequences that can result when it is violated.
The Killing Game
On several occasions, Captain Janeway improperly gave Starfleet technology or technological assistance to Delta Quadrant races. In the best-documented incident from this time, on or around Stardate 51710, Captain Janeway gave Federation holodeck technology to a race called the Hirogen. Three years later, it was discovered that Hirogen abuse of that technology resulted in the creation of a sentient and violent breed of hologram. Those holograms subsequently killed several sentients. In a documented conversation taking place on or around Stardate 54300, it was revealed that trading technology for supplies had in fact been standard operating procedure aboard Voyager for some time. Not every incident is fully documented in the ship's log, but a pattern of improper trade and its often dire consequences is easily seen in the record.
Dragon's Teeth
Captain Janeway ordered her crew to revive a race called the Vaadwaur, who were found in suspended animation on a devastated planet. The Vaadwaur had in fact been a violent, predatory race that had been defeated and nearly wiped out by its victims centuries earlier. As a result of Janeway's actions, several Vaadwaur vessels escaped to threaten that area of space once again. Sworn testimony from Ambassador Neelix and Crewman Annika Hansen will demonstrate that Janeway did not wait for a historical records search to be completed before having the Vaadwaur revived. That search revealed the true nature of the Vaadwaur, but by then it was too late to prevent their reintroduction into the Delta Quadrant.
Riddles
Captain Janeway negotiated with members of a paranoid and xenophobic race called the Kesat, offering them tactical data on neighboring races in exchange for information needed to treat Commander Tuvok, according to sworn testimony by several members of Voyager's bridge crew. While Voyager's log indicates that a deal was not in fact struck, Janeway's willingness to make such an arrangement demonstrates a disregard for sentient life and for Starfleet's principle of non-interference. A Starfleet Captain has a duty to protect the members of his or her crew but not at the expense of innocent sentients.
The Voyager Conspiracy
Captain Janeway ordered her crew to assist an alien named Tash in building a "subspace catapult," which was subsequently used by Voyager to travel several thousand light years closer to home. The crew used Starfleet technology and methods to build the catapult, but Janeway did nothing to prevent the catapult and its component Starfleet technology from falling into the wrong hands after leaving it behind.
Live Fast and Prosper
Captain Janeway discovered that the complete contents of the Federation database had been stolen from the Delta Flyer. While Voyager's crew apprehended the thieves, who were impersonating Federation representatives, Voyager's log shows that Janeway made no effort to determine whether that data had been passed to others, creating the possibility that the Delta Quadrant could now be awash in Federation knowledge and technology.
Caretaker
In this, let us remember that the Prime Directive states that interference with the natural development of any race which possesses a lower level of technology than the Federation is strictly forbidden. Had Captain Janeway not interfered, the Kazon would have taken possession of the Array, this being the natural course of events for their race given the circumstances. Captain Janeway's destruction of the Array was therefore a clear violation of the Prime Directive. Captain Janeway's claim that by destroying she was protecting the Ocampa is mere fabrication, as we have seen.
Jetrel
Captain Janeway allowed a known war criminal of a race with a lower level of technology than that of Voyager use of the Sickbay and the transporter. Her logs indicate that she sympathized with him, as he was trying to undo damage he had done, but the fact remains that she aided and abetted a criminal and violated the Prime Directive.
Prototype
The Voyager crew beamed aboard a deactivated robot and Janeway allowed Torres to try to reactivate it, using Federation technology. Once revived, the robot insisted that Torres build a prototype power module for the construction of additional units. Belatedly Janeway insisted that this was a violation of the Prime Directive, but the robot kidnapped Torres. Once aboard their ship Torres created the power units they needed, only to destroy them when she found out their true plans. The fact that the technology was destroyed does not excuse the original Prime Directive Violation.
Basics
By surrendering Voyager to the Kazon rather than destroying her, Janeway not only violated the Prime Directive by placing all of Voyager's technology in the hands of the Kazon, but conducted herself in a way unbefitting an officer, showed her unfitness for command and aided and abetted the enemy.
Swarm
Captain Janeway willfully invaded an alien realm of space and proceeded to destroys hundreds, if not thousand of their vessels - thus changing the balance of power in that section of space, ignoring the rules and culture of a sentient alien race and breaking the Prime Directive.
Scorpion
Captain Janeway made a deal with the Borg, confirmed enemies of the Federation, to help them destroy an enemy of their own in exchange for free passage through their space. Her reason for striking this deal is quite clear: passage through this particular area of the Delta Quadrant was the shortest route to the Alpha Quadrant. Going around Borg space would add decades to their journey. Although the deal Captain Janeway struck with the Borg did gain them the passage they needed, the Borg subsequently turned on them, becoming once again the enemy of Voyager. In addition, Janeway made a powerful enemy of the species she helped the Borg to defeat: a species the Borg designate 8472. This incident once again brings into question Captain Janeway's fitness for command as well as her original decision to strand her ship and crew in the Delta Quadrant, not to mention she broke the Prime Directive once again by interfering in the cultures and problems of Species8472 and The Borg - her decision to help the Borg led to millions more races being assimilated(as seen in 'Hope and Fear') and several thousand alien cultures ceasing to exist.
Demon
Captain Janeway allowed a pre-sentient lifeform to sample the Voyager crew's DNA. The pre-sentient "silver blood" lifeforms became humanoid as a result, and quickly mimicked the crew's mannerisms, memories, and technology. The Prime Directive is designed to prevent interference with the development of lifeforms less advanced than those of the Federation. Most often, alleged violations of the Directive arise from technology transfer or the exposure of pre-warp civilizations to the existence of alien life. The violation here, in many ways, is much more severe, as the evolution of an entire species, not merely the development of a civilization, was irrevocably altered by Janeway's callous actions. Indeed, there is anecdotal evidence, not corroborated in Voyager's logs, indicating that these lifeforms came to believe that they were in fact Voyager's crew, and they all died in a futile attempted to return to Earth. If true, this underscores the importance of the Prime Directive and the terrible consequences that can result when it is violated.
The Killing Game
On several occasions, Captain Janeway improperly gave Starfleet technology or technological assistance to Delta Quadrant races. In the best-documented incident from this time, on or around Stardate 51710, Captain Janeway gave Federation holodeck technology to a race called the Hirogen. Three years later, it was discovered that Hirogen abuse of that technology resulted in the creation of a sentient and violent breed of hologram. Those holograms subsequently killed several sentients. In a documented conversation taking place on or around Stardate 54300, it was revealed that trading technology for supplies had in fact been standard operating procedure aboard Voyager for some time. Not every incident is fully documented in the ship's log, but a pattern of improper trade and its often dire consequences is easily seen in the record.
Dragon's Teeth
Captain Janeway ordered her crew to revive a race called the Vaadwaur, who were found in suspended animation on a devastated planet. The Vaadwaur had in fact been a violent, predatory race that had been defeated and nearly wiped out by its victims centuries earlier. As a result of Janeway's actions, several Vaadwaur vessels escaped to threaten that area of space once again. Sworn testimony from Ambassador Neelix and Crewman Annika Hansen will demonstrate that Janeway did not wait for a historical records search to be completed before having the Vaadwaur revived. That search revealed the true nature of the Vaadwaur, but by then it was too late to prevent their reintroduction into the Delta Quadrant.
Riddles
Captain Janeway negotiated with members of a paranoid and xenophobic race called the Kesat, offering them tactical data on neighboring races in exchange for information needed to treat Commander Tuvok, according to sworn testimony by several members of Voyager's bridge crew. While Voyager's log indicates that a deal was not in fact struck, Janeway's willingness to make such an arrangement demonstrates a disregard for sentient life and for Starfleet's principle of non-interference. A Starfleet Captain has a duty to protect the members of his or her crew but not at the expense of innocent sentients.
The Voyager Conspiracy
Captain Janeway ordered her crew to assist an alien named Tash in building a "subspace catapult," which was subsequently used by Voyager to travel several thousand light years closer to home. The crew used Starfleet technology and methods to build the catapult, but Janeway did nothing to prevent the catapult and its component Starfleet technology from falling into the wrong hands after leaving it behind.
Live Fast and Prosper
Captain Janeway discovered that the complete contents of the Federation database had been stolen from the Delta Flyer. While Voyager's crew apprehended the thieves, who were impersonating Federation representatives, Voyager's log shows that Janeway made no effort to determine whether that data had been passed to others, creating the possibility that the Delta Quadrant could now be awash in Federation knowledge and technology.
--------------------------------------------
That list is not exhaustive, and does not even cover Endgame which is a 2 part celebration of the breaking of the Temporal Prime Directive.
Still, I do like Janeway more than any other Captain.
Not written by me:
Caretaker
In this, let us remember that the Prime Directive states that interference with the natural development of any race which possesses a lower level of technology than the Federation is strictly forbidden. Had Captain Janeway not interfered, the Kazon would have taken possession of the Array, this being the natural course of events for their race given the circumstances. Captain Janeway's destruction of the Array was therefore a clear violation of the Prime Directive. Captain Janeway's claim that by destroying she was protecting the Ocampa is mere fabrication, as we have seen.
Jetrel
Captain Janeway allowed a known war criminal of a race with a lower level of technology than that of Voyager use of the Sickbay and the transporter. Her logs indicate that she sympathized with him, as he was trying to undo damage he had done, but the fact remains that she aided and abetted a criminal and violated the Prime Directive.
Prototype
The Voyager crew beamed aboard a deactivated robot and Janeway allowed Torres to try to reactivate it, using Federation technology. Once revived, the robot insisted that Torres build a prototype power module for the construction of additional units. Belatedly Janeway insisted that this was a violation of the Prime Directive, but the robot kidnapped Torres. Once aboard their ship Torres created the power units they needed, only to destroy them when she found out their true plans. The fact that the technology was destroyed does not excuse the original Prime Directive Violation.
Basics
By surrendering Voyager to the Kazon rather than destroying her, Janeway not only violated the Prime Directive by placing all of Voyager's technology in the hands of the Kazon, but conducted herself in a way unbefitting an officer, showed her unfitness for command and aided and abetted the enemy.
Swarm
Captain Janeway willfully invaded an alien realm of space and proceeded to destroys hundreds, if not thousand of their vessels - thus changing the balance of power in that section of space, ignoring the rules and culture of a sentient alien race and breaking the Prime Directive.
Scorpion
Captain Janeway made a deal with the Borg, confirmed enemies of the Federation, to help them destroy an enemy of their own in exchange for free passage through their space. Her reason for striking this deal is quite clear: passage through this particular area of the Delta Quadrant was the shortest route to the Alpha Quadrant. Going around Borg space would add decades to their journey. Although the deal Captain Janeway struck with the Borg did gain them the passage they needed, the Borg subsequently turned on them, becoming once again the enemy of Voyager. In addition, Janeway made a powerful enemy of the species she helped the Borg to defeat: a species the Borg designate 8472. This incident once again brings into question Captain Janeway's fitness for command as well as her original decision to strand her ship and crew in the Delta Quadrant, not to mention she broke the Prime Directive once again by interfering in the cultures and problems of Species8472 and The Borg - her decision to help the Borg led to millions more races being assimilated(as seen in 'Hope and Fear') and several thousand alien cultures ceasing to exist.
Demon
Captain Janeway allowed a pre-sentient lifeform to sample the Voyager crew's DNA. The pre-sentient "silver blood" lifeforms became humanoid as a result, and quickly mimicked the crew's mannerisms, memories, and technology. The Prime Directive is designed to prevent interference with the development of lifeforms less advanced than those of the Federation. Most often, alleged violations of the Directive arise from technology transfer or the exposure of pre-warp civilizations to the existence of alien life. The violation here, in many ways, is much more severe, as the evolution of an entire species, not merely the development of a civilization, was irrevocably altered by Janeway's callous actions. Indeed, there is anecdotal evidence, not corroborated in Voyager's logs, indicating that these lifeforms came to believe that they were in fact Voyager's crew, and they all died in a futile attempted to return to Earth. If true, this underscores the importance of the Prime Directive and the terrible consequences that can result when it is violated.
The Killing Game
On several occasions, Captain Janeway improperly gave Starfleet technology or technological assistance to Delta Quadrant races. In the best-documented incident from this time, on or around Stardate 51710, Captain Janeway gave Federation holodeck technology to a race called the Hirogen. Three years later, it was discovered that Hirogen abuse of that technology resulted in the creation of a sentient and violent breed of hologram. Those holograms subsequently killed several sentients. In a documented conversation taking place on or around Stardate 54300, it was revealed that trading technology for supplies had in fact been standard operating procedure aboard Voyager for some time. Not every incident is fully documented in the ship's log, but a pattern of improper trade and its often dire consequences is easily seen in the record.
Dragon's Teeth
Captain Janeway ordered her crew to revive a race called the Vaadwaur, who were found in suspended animation on a devastated planet. The Vaadwaur had in fact been a violent, predatory race that had been defeated and nearly wiped out by its victims centuries earlier. As a result of Janeway's actions, several Vaadwaur vessels escaped to threaten that area of space once again. Sworn testimony from Ambassador Neelix and Crewman Annika Hansen will demonstrate that Janeway did not wait for a historical records search to be completed before having the Vaadwaur revived. That search revealed the true nature of the Vaadwaur, but by then it was too late to prevent their reintroduction into the Delta Quadrant.
Riddles
Captain Janeway negotiated with members of a paranoid and xenophobic race called the Kesat, offering them tactical data on neighboring races in exchange for information needed to treat Commander Tuvok, according to sworn testimony by several members of Voyager's bridge crew. While Voyager's log indicates that a deal was not in fact struck, Janeway's willingness to make such an arrangement demonstrates a disregard for sentient life and for Starfleet's principle of non-interference. A Starfleet Captain has a duty to protect the members of his or her crew but not at the expense of innocent sentients.
The Voyager Conspiracy
Captain Janeway ordered her crew to assist an alien named Tash in building a "subspace catapult," which was subsequently used by Voyager to travel several thousand light years closer to home. The crew used Starfleet technology and methods to build the catapult, but Janeway did nothing to prevent the catapult and its component Starfleet technology from falling into the wrong hands after leaving it behind.
Live Fast and Prosper
Captain Janeway discovered that the complete contents of the Federation database had been stolen from the Delta Flyer. While Voyager's crew apprehended the thieves, who were impersonating Federation representatives, Voyager's log shows that Janeway made no effort to determine whether that data had been passed to others, creating the possibility that the Delta Quadrant could now be awash in Federation knowledge and technology.
--------------------------------------------That list is not exhaustive, and does not even cover Endgame which is a 2 part celebration of the breaking of the Temporal Prime Directive.
Still, I do like Janeway more than any other Captain.
All of those are valid. But if you were to create a similar list for all of the other Captains, they would each take up an entire page.
Gatefan1976
Well Known GateFan
All of those are valid. But if you were to create a similar list for all of the other Captains, they would each take up an entire page.
Oh hell, you could write a whole thesis on the Morality or lack therof of Sisko getting the Romulans into the Dominion war
However, that was not my intent. My intent was to show that Janeway was hardly the "shining example" of starfleet captains. In fact the one who comes closest is probably Archer simply because the rulebook wasn't written yet!!
I'm not going to go into the weeds on it, but most of those examples don't fly. Plus like you noted you didn't write it. I figured that anyway, as the language in several places shows the author to be an over obsessed Trekkie who has a personal animus against Janeway (for whatever bizarre reason).
Janeway definitely is written as a follow the spirit of the rules type of Captain. Plus her situation required her to adapt those rules because they frequently call for higher authority which is unavailable to Janeway in the Delta Quadrant.
Janeway definitely is written as a follow the spirit of the rules type of Captain. Plus her situation required her to adapt those rules because they frequently call for higher authority which is unavailable to Janeway in the Delta Quadrant.
Gatefan1976
Well Known GateFan
OK, I'll pick one example then. Giving Holotech to the Hirogin. As a result of that decision (saving the crew or not), she enabled the creation of a slave race in the Holograpic people. You can argue unintended consequences, sure but the rules of starfleet exist to prevent unintended consequences. Or you could argue that as they were photonic lifeforms, they just don't matter, Commander Maddox tried that trick.
Or, because we only *enabled* it, but not actually *did* it Ourselves, it just doesn't matter?
Also, *again* I am not dissing on Janeway, she is my favorite captain. I agree she had to adapt the rules, but one thing that always irked me about her was her often citing the need to follow the rules, be a starfleet crew, hold fast to the guiding principles of the Federation etc, she sure as hell bent those rules and principles when it served her purposes. Did she always have cause, sure, but thats the downside of pontificating about anything, people will pick up on it. Do I think any less of the character, not really.
Agree it's not worth debating on. We both like Janeway.
In fact I will take it a step further and say that Voyager was noteworthy for the way the women characters were written as a whole. Basically all the women were pretty strong characters who were not primarily sexually defined. Yes Seven of Nine had her catsuit but even then the character was a lot more complex than one would expect - instead of writing her as typical "cheesecake" (see SGU for especially degrading examples of that) they wrote Seven as an outsider - and then used her to show the others through that perspective. It worked very well.
B'Elanna was also well written. She had depth and a definite arc - her struggle with her inner anger among other things. Plus she had an acerbic wit that served her well. There is an especially good episode where her learning of the massacre of her Maquis friends back in the Alpha Quadrant causes her to have emotional problems and ultimately self destructive behavior.
Even a woman villain (Seska) was well defined and actually had some complexity to her.
In a way having so many strongly written and acted female characters caused Kes to get drowned out, and made it unsurprising they wrote her out. Although again not written as a "sexpot" she was by far the least strong of the women. The result was her character became less and less important and used as time went on and finally they wrote her out.
In fact I will take it a step further and say that Voyager was noteworthy for the way the women characters were written as a whole. Basically all the women were pretty strong characters who were not primarily sexually defined. Yes Seven of Nine had her catsuit but even then the character was a lot more complex than one would expect - instead of writing her as typical "cheesecake" (see SGU for especially degrading examples of that) they wrote Seven as an outsider - and then used her to show the others through that perspective. It worked very well.
B'Elanna was also well written. She had depth and a definite arc - her struggle with her inner anger among other things. Plus she had an acerbic wit that served her well. There is an especially good episode where her learning of the massacre of her Maquis friends back in the Alpha Quadrant causes her to have emotional problems and ultimately self destructive behavior.
Even a woman villain (Seska) was well defined and actually had some complexity to her.
In a way having so many strongly written and acted female characters caused Kes to get drowned out, and made it unsurprising they wrote her out. Although again not written as a "sexpot" she was by far the least strong of the women. The result was her character became less and less important and used as time went on and finally they wrote her out.
Gatefan1976
Well Known GateFan
I'm up for the debate, but for the rest of your post, YES I agree, Voy had fantastically well written female characters, my favorite probably being Torres.
As for Kes, One reason I have heard floated around about her leaving was that people could never get over the "ickky factor" of her being 3 years old and having a developed relationship another character. Seven allowed that "innocence of Youth" concept without that factor in play, a relatively fair reason in the TV industry.
Jim of WVa
Well Known GateFan
The worse episode of Voyager was when the crew was bored because there were not stars to show on the viewscreen. I mean they could have shown anything on the viewscreen, but they changed their path so that there would be stars on the viewscreen. By the time Voyager came around, the writers lost all their mojo.
SciphonicStranger
Objects may be closer than they appear
Made even ickier since she was tagging Neelix. Those two were a bust right off the bat.
Bluce Ree
Tech Admin / Council Member
I always found that entire premise stupid. The doctor's sentience came from the evolution of his program stored in the ship's computer, not from a hologram projection unit. They gave the Hirogen holotech, not a copy of Voyager's database.
Gatefan1976
Well Known GateFan
True, but in the eps in question, they left them on long enough for them to evolve -just like the doc-, and later on in the Irish villiage, and earlier in Vic Fontaine in DS9. Leave the program running long enough, sentience seems to be the "Star Trek" result. (and also most Scifi result)