American Sniper? HUH? Why is this movie successful????
- Thread starter Overmind One
- Start date
Allow me to give you my professional opinion (psychology college degree here) - Chris Kyle was NOT a "psychopath" - he does not conform to the definition of "psychopath" as stated in the DSM IV by the APA. He may have suffered some mental health issues after his time in the military - but was able to integrate fully back into society.
Most with serious mental health issues - from Timothy McVeigh (the libs fave stalking horse) to this guy who killed Chris Kyle, are given mental health discharges from the military. I guess you don't know any people who currently serve, OM1, I do - including the spouses of several of my co-workers and the former county prosecutor here. (you should hear his comments about gitmo- he spent 9 months on rotation there as a JAG) they are functioning and productive members of society. you are starting to sound like john kerry there OM1.
I appreciate your insights, Rac.
But the fact is that being able to join the ranks of the military (all branches) was just not open to everyone. Men were screened to an exacting degree, they were sent through rigorous tests of physical and mental challenges for months (3 for Marines, 2 for Army and Navy). The Air Force requirements for combat were always basic and nowhere near the other branches. During that time, many mental challenges were created to test emotional and cognitive stability. Kyle could never be a Marine or Army, and he wasnt. The Navy is the most unsat branch of the military, then and also now. The Navy Seal requirements are just about standard for ALL Marines. Kyle's edge was his sniper ability.When we take a closer look at the real life Chris Kyle, we see somebody who was always fascinated with guns and killing, and who started his love of guns at the tender age of 8. We take a look at his parents, and we see far right religious commitment. We see a passive and non-guiding mother. But mostly, we see a very troubled Chris Kyle growing up and getting married and having two kids which he gleefully left behind while he served 4 tours in Iraq killing and killing and killing. He loved killing more than he loved his family. He was able to find joy in killing AT LEAST 255 people. Let that sink in. 255 people killed by headshot, heart shot, or a combination of the two. All this while his wife was left behind with two children.
But I did not know any of this when I saw the movie. I was just watching a film about what (turned out to be) about a rather disturbed man who loved to kill people. His saving grace was the license to kill given to him by being a Navy SEAL sniper. He tried several routes into any situation where he would get the opportunity to kill people. He tried to get into the Marines, the Army, and finally the Navy took him as a sniper. What he did while over there is APPALLING (from a human standpoint).
I would kill to protect family or loved ones. I would kill to stop a terrorist. I would kill in service to my country. But I would never fall in love with killing. THAT is the disgusting part. The movie tried to make it a good thing that he was doing. He was the best Navy SEAL sniper, but nowhere near the best sniper in history. Even Lyudmila Pavlichenko, a woman, had 309 confirmed sniper kills.
My point is that this movie is PROPAGANDA.
I agree. Besides that, Routh simply did not have permission to kill Kyle. Even though Kyle shot over 250 people in the head, he wasn't insane, just doing his job. And he worked very very hard to get that job too.
Jim of WVa
Well Known GateFan
A soldier is someone who fights as part of a military force. Kyle was also a Navy SEAL, and his shooter also a Marine.
I agree on both counts. The Army tries to claim the title of "soldier" for itself.
Marines, Navy Seals, Air Force Pilots, even sailors and desk personnel are seen as "soldiers" by civilians. Anyone who wears the uniform. Kyle's shooter was a Marine, and also a soldier. Marines call Navy "squids", and we call Army "doggies", and Air Force "fly boys".
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
Allow me to give you my professional opinion (psychology college degree here) - Chris Kyle was NOT a "psychopath" - he does not conform to the definition of "psychopath" as stated in the DSM IV by the APA. He may have suffered some mental health issues after his time in the military - but was able to integrate fully back into society.
Most with serious mental health issues - from Timothy McVeigh (the libs fave stalking horse) to this guy who killed Chris Kyle, are given mental health discharges from the military. I guess you don't know any people who currently serve, OM1, I do - including the spouses of several of my co-workers and the former county prosecutor here. (you should hear his comments about gitmo- he spent 9 months on rotation there as a JAG) they are functioning and productive members of society. you are starting to sound like john kerry there OM1.
Be the same in the DSM 5 also....
I think that what Kyle was trying to do with his shooting range was a something loosely connected to a widely used therapy for combat induced PTSD
Virtual Reality therapy is used for a service member and a program is built to the details given by the SM and his service record. that is..a VR world is built around the SM's traumatic experience (and IED attack ,RPG, mortars, rifle combat, ambush etc) and run in a simulator very similar to the combat simulators already used for tank driver training and flight simulators
Seems Kyle was trying a low tech version of this by allowing vets with PTSD 'shoot their way" to a therapeutic event.
He may of had good intentions and was defi taking a direct, "no nonsense" approach to it, but he obviously didn't see the virtues of NOT using live rounds
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
"soldier" is a noun describing a member of the US Army
Kyle was not "also" a Seal as he was never prior service in another branch to rate that "also"
A sailor would never say he was a soldier; a marine would NEVER say he was anything other then a marine
Though a USAF member may try to pass as a "soldier" only to not bore his listeners with his tales of refueling hysters on the flight line...
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
I agree on both counts. The Army tries to claim the title of "soldier" for itself.
Just wrong==huge fail and you know it
"Soldier" is the official term for a member of any component of the US Army
as is "Sailor" for the Navy and Marine for a member of the USMC
as far as a civie's idea on things,doesn't matter what they think (or what they get from Hollywood) it does not make it correct or trump official designations, hell cicies think that all sodliers and marines are constantly running around their home base carrying loaded weapons;doesn't mean one can say that is true based on public assumptions
no matter where you look, the defi is the same:
from wiki:
"In the United States Army (or Marine Corps), infantrymen are sometimes called "grunts", while Army artillerymen are sometimes referred to as "redlegs", from the service branch color for artillery. U.S. soldiers are often called "G.I.s". Members of the United States Marine Corps are typically referred to as "Marines" rather than "soldiers".
from dictionary.com:
"a person who serves in an army."
and, most importantly, it is the title of common address for all Army members in general as specified in the Army Command Policy pub of 2014
http://www.apd.army.mil/jw2/xmldemo/r600_20/main.asp
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
Interesting--min req's for selection to attend BUDS are nearly the same phys requirements that any soldier needs to pass their BT APFT (except soldiers do a 2 mile run and no swim test) and soldiers get no rest period in between events--other then how long it takes to cycle through the line for each event
http://navyseals.com/ns-overview/navy-swcc-the-navys-elite-boat-warriors/
PSTSWCC
SWIM 500 YDS. side stroke or breast stroke13:00 min
Rest 10 minutes
PUSH-UPS within 2 minutes42
Rest 2 minutes
SIT-UPS within 2 minutes50
Rest 2 minutes
PULL-UPS no time limit6
Rest 10 minutes
1.5 MILE RUN12:30 min/sec
--------------------------------------------------------------
Also interesting to note that ANY marine or soldier has far more weapons trng and combat training/survival skills then any BUDS recruit does after they grad NAVY Basic trng (where there is none (or very little) weapons trng
So from that baseline, I do not see how the media keeps getting in a tizzy over seals; ANY Marine or soldier comeing from their trng background will have far more time behind a rifle by the time they hit wither Marine Special warfare trng or army SF or Ranger trng
I think that it is mentality (mental stability/"toughness" ) that make commanders choose seal teams for high risk ops; they know that they have undergone intense psychological toughening in their training (vs weapons and combat trng) at BUDS and SEAL trng-therfore they are more likely to commit to dangerous missions and see them through.
However. look at the data; see how much external spt one seal team needs from external assets (army aviation/naval aviation/marine aviation--marine recon teams/marine spec warfare teams or army rangers ) to be on standby for every mission they go on (just look at the info for the "lone survivor" mission and how much external spt was needed for it and the seals still failed) IT IS FAR more then it is for any mission executed by either marine special warfare units or army SF--both of whom are far more capable of carrying out missions with less spt
The SEALS are currently the poster kids for the war on terror--the misinformed public therfore believes they are the only ones doing anything "special" or high value
but then, the US public are shrubs
http://navyseals.com/ns-overview/navy-swcc-the-navys-elite-boat-warriors/
PSTSWCC
SWIM 500 YDS. side stroke or breast stroke13:00 min
Rest 10 minutes
PUSH-UPS within 2 minutes42
Rest 2 minutes
SIT-UPS within 2 minutes50
Rest 2 minutes
PULL-UPS no time limit6
Rest 10 minutes
1.5 MILE RUN12:30 min/sec
--------------------------------------------------------------
Also interesting to note that ANY marine or soldier has far more weapons trng and combat training/survival skills then any BUDS recruit does after they grad NAVY Basic trng (where there is none (or very little) weapons trng
So from that baseline, I do not see how the media keeps getting in a tizzy over seals; ANY Marine or soldier comeing from their trng background will have far more time behind a rifle by the time they hit wither Marine Special warfare trng or army SF or Ranger trng
I think that it is mentality (mental stability/"toughness" ) that make commanders choose seal teams for high risk ops; they know that they have undergone intense psychological toughening in their training (vs weapons and combat trng) at BUDS and SEAL trng-therfore they are more likely to commit to dangerous missions and see them through.
However. look at the data; see how much external spt one seal team needs from external assets (army aviation/naval aviation/marine aviation--marine recon teams/marine spec warfare teams or army rangers ) to be on standby for every mission they go on (just look at the info for the "lone survivor" mission and how much external spt was needed for it and the seals still failed) IT IS FAR more then it is for any mission executed by either marine special warfare units or army SF--both of whom are far more capable of carrying out missions with less spt
The SEALS are currently the poster kids for the war on terror--the misinformed public therfore believes they are the only ones doing anything "special" or high value
but then, the US public are shrubs
Your entire argument is based upon the idea that an army is "the Army". A group of armed people in a huge mob is still an army. The definition of army:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/army
Full Definition of ARMY
1
a : a large organized body of armed personnel trained for war especially on land
b : a unit capable of independent action and consisting usually of a headquarters, two or more corps, and auxiliary troops
c often capitalized : the complete military organization of a nation for land warfare
2
: a great multitude <an army of birds>
3
: a body of persons organized to advance a cause
All Marines consider themselves soldiers, because they ARE soldiers. Marines don't like to be referred to as soldiers, but that is what they are. Same with Navy land forces like SEALS and any privately hired mercenaries. All of them are soldiers.
Incidentally, no definition I looked at (dozens, actually) mentioned once that the term "soldier" is "the official term for a member of any component of the US Army", including the one you posted.
Bluce Ree
Tech Admin / Council Member
Killing without remorse, even if that lack of remorse only occurs when killing "an enemy" or "a threat", requires a certain level of psychopathy. Successful surgeons who can perform several operations per day and continue to without remorse immediately after losing a patient on the table also requires a measure of psychopathy.
We had a lively discussion here on this subject. Psychopathy at some level is found in some of the most successful people. The ruthlessness exhibited by powerful CEOs, for example, have been attributed to some degree of psychopathy.
shavedape
Well Known GateFan
I agree for the most part but would like to point out that a surgeon's goal is to preserve life while a sniper's goal is to end life. I don't mean to take this thread down a rabbit hole so my apologies in advance.
No, actually that point had to be made. Nowhere in the animal kingdom is it the norm to kill one's own kind on such an intentional, mass scale. To be a skilled killer of other humans...that is just not cool. I wonder if the overall goal of "Take Baghdad" was ever in the mind of the real life Chris Kyle when he was playing shooting gallery in the streets of Iraq? He literally volunteered to serve in that killing capacity for 4 tours in a row. I get the job of a sniper. But Chris Kyle was beyond sniper.
I take a hard look at my hate for Islam and Muslims, and I have openly said I want Mecca and Medina nuked, knowing that thousands of Muslims would be killed instantly in such an attack. But that is not why I want those targets nuked, I want them nuked because they are the center of a religion/cult whose ideology is driving global terrorism in a real life attempt at total global subjugation to Islam. Now, it seems as though the Islamic cult is consuming itself through ideological and territorial internal struggles. ISIS will never take Saudi Arabia or Egypt or Israel. But it can destroy Syria and severely de-stabilize Saudi Arabia and Lebanon and other Islamic regimes with resources it can steal. ISIS may itself destroy both Mecca and Media, since they claim that those physical places distract from Allah.
Perhaps next year, I will be wanting nukes to fly again. In none of that am I taking glee in people being killed or suffering. Kyle loved to kill. That is what is disturbing about him and the movie.
Gatefan1976
Well Known GateFan
Are you seriously calling "backsies" now?
What are you talking about? The thread continues to be about Chris Kyle and his behavior in real life and in the movie. Im the one who brought up my comments about mudslimes. But Im not calling in favors and pulling (hard) on strings to actually go out and slaughter a couple hundred people. It could have been anywhere and any conflict. Kyle needed to shoot up a bunch of people and he made his chance.
Seen the movie yet?
Bluce Ree
Tech Admin / Council Member
Yes, agreed. My point was that psychopathy doesn't always imply an immediately observable behavioral stereotype nor does it automatically entail significantly observable anti-social behavior. Exhibiting gleeful pride in the number of human kills one has throughout their career makes one a psychopath.
It's definitely a touchy subject, given that our soldiers are executing orders and serving our country and expected to do their best. When you send a sniper on a mission you definitely want the best of the best out there and the number of successful kills is among that criteria.
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
Your entire argument is based upon the idea that an army is "the Army". A group of armed people in a huge mob is still an army. The definition of army:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/army
Full Definition of ARMY
1
a : a large organized body of armed personnel trained for war especially on land
b : a unit capable of independent action and consisting usually of a headquarters, two or more corps, and auxiliary troops
c often capitalized : the complete military organization of a nation for land warfare
2
: a great multitude <an army of birds>
3
: a body of persons organized to advance a cause
All Marines consider themselves soldiers, because they ARE soldiers. Marines don't like to be referred to as soldiers, but that is what they are. Same with Navy land forces like SEALS and any privately hired mercenaries. All of them are soldiers.
Incidentally, no definition I looked at (dozens, actually) mentioned once that the term "soldier" is "the official term for a member of any component of the US Army", including the one you posted.
your using "army" and "soldier" in the general sense
I am using it in the specific and official military sense
It is in army command policy
or just look at any army website--they refer to servicemembers as soldiers
really, just stop, you know better!
And you know damned well if you were to go up to a group of marines and try your definitions on them ("hey soldiers. how ya doing?") they would have a very low opinion of you--to say the least
YJ02
Well Known GateFan
What are you talking about? The thread continues to be about Chris Kyle and his behavior in real life and in the movie. Im the one who brought up my comments about mudslimes. But Im not calling in favors and pulling (hard) on strings to actually go out and slaughter a couple hundred people. It could have been anywhere and any conflict. Kyle needed to shoot up a bunch of people and he made his chance.
Seen the movie yet?
the movie was made by Clint Eastwood
he would turn a big screen adaptation of Sesame Street into a kill fest as well