The Science of Star Trek vs the Magic of Star Wars - the 10 Year Flame War!

[Overmind One]

There is a behind the scene footage of one of the star trek voyager where one of the guys explains how gene Roddenberry wanted to incorporate as much real space science fiction into star trek as possible. I can't seem to find it. I may upload it if I get time.

Star Trek TNG was (according to him) his best interpretation of his Star Trek vision. He was dead before Deep Space Nine and Voyager came out. I think Voyager captured much of it, but right off the bat they started messing with the science. Bio-neural gelpacks? Why even bother with introducing that? It did not make the ship any more formidable than the Enterprise which did not have them.

Alas, in the NuTrek movies, all you have to do is push the deus ex machina button and whatever technology you need is magically integrated into the film.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Star Trek TNG was (according to him) his best interpretation of his Star Trek vision. He was dead before Deep Space Nine and Voyager came out. I think Voyager captured much of it, but right off the bat they started messing with the science. Bio-neural gelpacks? Why even bother with introducing that? It did not make the ship any more formidable than the Enterprise which did not have them.

Umm...................
The Bio gel packs allowed for the faster response times of the Intrepid class which allowed them to be one of the few ships capable of entering the badlands (along with variable Nacelle geometry)
Not everything is about bigger guns.......

 

[Overmind One]

Umm...................
The Bio gel packs allowed for the faster response times of the Intrepid class which allowed them to be one of the few ships capable of entering the badlands (along with variable Nacelle geometry)
Not everything is about bigger guns.......

Yes, you are correct. It was a purpose built ship. I forgot that the Federation was at war with the Maquis when the Voyager timeline began.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Yes, you are correct. It was a purpose built ship. I forgot that the Federation was at war with the Maquis when the Voyager timeline began.

WHAT???
You forgot the entire reason why they end up in the delta quadrant???!!!???

 

[Joelist]

I'm pretty sure that the gel packs also appeared in the Enterprise-E in some Trek novels - whether those were "canonical" or not I do not know. And we know the Enterprise-E had the EMH program because they use it in First Contact.

Memory Alpha is a good source for this stuff, but does need to be taken with a grain of salt in some areas, namely the physical size and weight of the ships. For example, they have Voyager (with its crew of 150) being 1100 feet long (the size of a Nimitz class aircraft carrier which has a crew of 4000+) and weighing 700,000 tons (seven times the displacement of the Nimitz class carrier)?

 

[Gatefan1976]

Err, you do know most of the stuff on a Federation vessel is automated, right?
You do know that automation means less jobs to do, and a lack of "fighters" means you don't need their support or piloting crew as well (which is around 2400 people on an aircraft carrier)?

 

[Bluce Ree]

Err, you do know most of the stuff on a Federation vessel is automated, right?
You do know that automation means less jobs to do, and a lack of "fighters" means you don't need their support or piloting crew as well (which is around 2400 people on an aircraft carrier)?

I think that manning a federation exploration vessel is more about creating a community environment and redundancy than purely minimal essential personnel. I see no other reason to send a ship that advanced with over a thousand people on board.

It's a contrast, though. In our time, sending a vessel into space with a thousand people on board would be considered an ark of sorts with the goal of creating a colony.

 

[Gatefan1976]

I think that manning a federation exploration vessel is more about creating a community environment and redundancy than purely minimal essential personnel. I see no other reason to send a ship that advanced with over a thousand people on board.

It's a contrast, though. In our time, sending a vessel into space with a thousand people on board would be considered an ark of sorts with the goal of creating a colony.

I'm confused on what you mean here Bluce.
Exploratory vessels -should- have minimal personal, it's less of a human risk, and the Intrepid class -was- supposed to be an exploratory vessel.
I don't get why Joe would think that a vessel bigger than an aircraft carrier -now- should need the same level of people on board to make it work.

 

[Joelist]

My point was that Memory Alpha's size figures for Voyager are absurd for the size of the crew. A CVN has 3000 crew that are not the air wing. There is also the issue that we've seen people next to Voyager as well as shuttles and the Delta Flyer. Unless people have increased in size from today a good deal scaling that would give a Voyager about 600 feet long at most.

Then you get to 700,000 tons. Seeing as a thousand foot long ship today made out of steel is only 100,000 tons, Voyager if anything should be lighter as they have stated before the alloys used in it are both durable and lightweight. And if you also take into account that it cannot realistically be a thousand feet long, a 600 foot long ship should be at most around 45,000 tons.

This extends to the Enterprise-E, which according to these sources is an absurd 2250 feet long and over 3 million tons. What is it made out of...neutronium?

In many areas Trek does a good job of maintaining reasonably logical parameters in its universe. This is not one of them.

 

[Bluce Ree]

I'm confused on what you mean here Bluce.
Exploratory vessels -should- have minimal personal, it's less of a human risk, and the Intrepid class -was- supposed to be an exploratory vessel.

Going into deep space, alone, for years at a time, is much easier to handle in terms of morale if you can create an exploratory community as well as redundancy in personnel. Losing the only doctor on board or the only communications engineer is fine and dandy in scifi movies or short hop explorations, not when you're alone in the void past the point of no return.

 

[Overmind One]

My point was that Memory Alpha's size figures for Voyager are absurd for the size of the crew. A CVN has 3000 crew that are not the air wing. There is also the issue that we've seen people next to Voyager as well as shuttles and the Delta Flyer. Unless people have increased in size from today a good deal scaling that would give a Voyager about 600 feet long at most.

Then you get to 700,000 tons. Seeing as a thousand foot long ship today made out of steel is only 100,000 tons, Voyager if anything should be lighter as they have stated before the alloys used in it are both durable and lightweight. And if you also take into account that it cannot realistically be a thousand feet long, a 600 foot long ship should be at most around 45,000 tons.

This extends to the Enterprise-E, which according to these sources is an absurd 2250 feet long and over 3 million tons. What is it made out of...neutronium?

In many areas Trek does a good job of maintaining reasonably logical parameters in its universe. This is not one of them.

The original Enterprise was between 900 and 1000 feet long and had a crew of 400. It's interior details were inspired by the aircraft carriers of the time.

 

[Gatefan1976]

My point was that Memory Alpha's size figures for Voyager are absurd for the size of the crew. A CVN has 3000 crew that are not the air wing. There is also the issue that we've seen people next to Voyager as well as shuttles and the Delta Flyer. Unless people have increased in size from today a good deal scaling that would give a Voyager about 600 feet long at most.

Sure, but Memory Alpha only uses the figures given in the show itself. When the Voyager landed and the crew were kicked off, they -did- stuff up the scale, and I think they even directly mention that in the Special features of that season.

Then you get to 700,000 tons. Seeing as a thousand foot long ship today made out of steel is only 100,000 tons, Voyager if anything should be lighter as they have stated before the alloys used in it are both durable and lightweight. And if you also take into account that it cannot realistically be a thousand feet long, a 600 foot long ship should be at most around 45,000 tons.

Like I said, that's on the show creators, not memory alpha.

This extends to the Enterprise-E, which according to these sources is an absurd 2250 feet long and over 3 million tons. What is it made out of...neutronium?

That's only 1 kilometre long, is that really so much of a stretch to believe?

In many areas Trek does a good job of maintaining reasonably logical parameters in its universe. This is not one of them.

It's good at hiding it's illogical parameters

 

[Gatefan1976]

Going into deep space, alone, for years at a time, is much easier to handle in terms of morale if you can create an exploratory community as well as redundancy in personnel. Losing the only doctor on board or the only communications engineer is fine and dandy in scifi movies or short hop explorations, not when you're alone in the void past the point of no return.

Well, 150 people is large enough for a village, in fact it is a large village, so you have your community down pat.
Hell, if push came to shove, you could repopulate a planet with that DNA mix.
As for being alone in the void, it (Voyager) was not designed to get "that far out man"

 

[Joelist]

Sure, but Memory Alpha only uses the figures given in the show itself. When the Voyager landed and the crew were kicked off, they -did- stuff up the scale, and I think they even directly mention that in the Special features of that season.

Like I said, that's on the show creators, not memory alpha.

That's only 1 kilometre long, is that really so much of a stretch to believe?


It's good at hiding it's illogical parameters

I know it's on the show runners. Really they should have given more thought to matters of size and weight, but TV writers are not necessarily well versed in such things. As to the scaling, it was also apparent in Season Two and also the Demon class planet episode, not to mention every showing of a shuttle or the flyer in the same scene as the ship.

 

[Gatefan1976]

I know it's on the show runners. Really they should have given more thought to matters of size and weight, but TV writers are not necessarily well versed in such things. As to the scaling, it was also apparent in Season Two and also the Demon class planet episode, not to mention every showing of a shuttle or the flyer in the same scene as the ship.

I agree with you completely on that Joe. When they land the ship and kick off the crew is -exactly- the episode I am talking about when they say they stuffed up the scale.
All I -am- saying is that is not the "fault" of Memory Alpha", yeah?

 

[Bluce Ree]

Well, 150 people is large enough for a village, in fact it is a large village, so you have your community down pat.
Hell, if push came to shove, you could repopulate a planet with that DNA mix.
As for being alone in the void, it (Voyager) was not designed to get "that far out man"

If they got stuck without warp drive and subspace communications half way between Earth and Alpha Centauri, a mere 4 light years away, they may as well be in the Delta Quadrant.

 

[Joelist]

I agree with you completely on that Joe. When they land the ship and kick off the crew is -exactly- the episode I am talking about when they say they stuffed up the scale.
All I -am- saying is that is not the "fault" of Memory Alpha", yeah?

I guess I would have liked a Trek site like Memory Alpha to point out the utter illogic of the crazy size/weight ratios given for these ships.

 

[Overmind One]

I know it's on the show runners. Really they should have given more thought to matters of size and weight, but TV writers are not necessarily well versed in such things. As to the scaling, it was also apparent in Season Two and also the Demon class planet episode, not to mention every showing of a shuttle or the flyer in the same scene as the ship.

Something else I don't get is how many shuttles Voyager was carrying. In the 7 seasons, we saw Type 8 shuttles like this (also carried by the Enterprise 1701-D from TNG)



Voyager also carried the Type 9:



Plus the Delta Flyer:

PLUS, it carried the coolest shuttle of all, the Captain's Yacht (Intrepid class aeroshuttle) which would have had a greater range than all of them, and in a pinch could do a power transfer to power Voyager's systems for a short time. It was never used in the show, but you saw it every time you saw the underside of Voyager's front section:

 

[Joelist]

Believe it or not they actually explained in an episode how Voyager was able to fabricate shuttlecraft. There is a machine shop behind the shuttle bay - it is where they built the Flyer. Once they had solved the fuel and energy source issues enough to allow for normal replicator usage they were able to replicate the components.

 

[Overmind One]

Believe it or not they actually explained in an episode how Voyager was able to fabricate shuttlecraft. There is a machine shop behind the shuttle bay - it is where they built the Flyer. Once they had solved the fuel and energy source issues enough to allow for normal replicator usage they were able to replicate the components.

I don't know why I am so fascinated with these two things:

1.) The never seen detachable landing saucer sequence for Enterprise 1701 (TOS) and landing struts for it deployed on landing.

2.) The Intrepid Class aeroshuttle which was actually modeled and shot by Foundation Imaging showing the launching of the aeroshuttle from Voyager:


We already know that the TOS Enterprise saucer section landing was prevented by budget restraints. And that obstacle gave us one of the most Trek specific concepts: the transporter. But the reason for the Voyager Captain's Yacht never being used was for a more banal and petty reason. Paramount did not want it's launch of the rushed Cousteau Captain's Yacht used in Insurrection to be upstaged:

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Voyager_aeroshuttle