Star Wars #7 Character Details

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
The same question stands. Using flashback scenes to the past to set up plot elements and characters is a story technique as old as stories themselves are. There is nothing inherently wrong with doing so. There also is nothing inherently problematic with introducing new characters, especially as this film is set 30 years after Return of the Jedi. New characters being introduced was totally inevitable

Of course (bolded). but not retconned characters. You only retcon characters when you want them to draw from an established premise or character. It's like soap operas do when dredging up a "long lost brother" or an orphan adult reuniting with his birth parents and being welcomed back into the family. But in Star Wars and Star Trek, the only reason to do that would be to give them credibility and substance that they would not have otherwise. A new Jedi is not as good as a Jedi who was actually Obi-Wan's son from a wife we never knew about on Tatooine, is he? This is how JJ does it. His new Spock is VERY uncool. But that is why Spock Prime (Leonard Nimoy) was put in the show.

Also, the producer or director are not the ones who create characters or determine who they are or how they act - that is done by the writer. It's why I keep saying that the biggest issue with the prequels was the writing. The awful characterizations therein were written by George Lucas who also wrote the ludicrous dialogue. Where the producer/director make their mark is in different area - pacing, visuals, sound and such. Where they interact with characters is getting the actor/actress to deliver a performance that lines up with the script.

The Director does indeed say how the actors will interact, how they will move and where they will move to and from. The writers create the characters themselves, and the actors flesh out the characters. And at the end of it all, the Director is the one who says yea or nay, not the writers. The Producer has nothing to do with any of that.

As to Abrams and characters, actually he has created some good ones. For example Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol. He created all of the IMF team except Ethan and they all were good characters who could actually have used their own sequel. In the two Star Trek films while we may dislike Into Darkness we can't point at the characters as a prime issue because overall they are not badly done. I love Karl's Urban's McCoy in both films for example and Simon Pegg has made Scotty his own creation. The prime issue in Into Darkness was the idiotic plot which principally came from Damon Lindelof (Prometheus being incomprehensible nonsense should have been a danger sign) and Roberto Orci (his remarks about Khan label him a first class idiot forevermore).

Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol? What's that? :biggrin: :beguiled: :P Never saw it...never wanted to. :)

So even IF Abrams were responsible for all the characters he has created good ones in the past. And we know he isn't because characters come from the writer not the producer.

Abrams still hasnt created any good characters that I can see. :) But this movie is not out yet so none of us know. I at least accepted his Star Trek 2009 movie...until the second one came out, then both went into my mind's trash can. Im not going to see the next one in a theater. Star Wars, I will wait until all the screaming drooling fanboys have seen it and read the feedback. :)
 

shavedape

Well Known GateFan
Of course (bolded). but not retconned characters. You only retcon characters when you want them to draw from an established premise or character. It's like soap operas do when dredging up a "long lost brother" or an orphan adult reuniting with his birth parents and being welcomed back into the family. But in Star Wars and Star Trek, the only reason to do that would be to give them credibility and substance that they would not have otherwise. A new Jedi is not as good as a Jedi who was actually Obi-Wan's son from a wife we never knew about on Tatooine, is he? This is how JJ does it. His new Spock is VERY uncool. But that is why Spock Prime (Leonard Nimoy) was put in the show.

This bears repeating. ^

A retcon of this type is done only for soap reasons. And as I see it there's no legitimate reason they can't create new major characters that grow organically out of the new story line. But what they are proposing is like a perverted form of nepotism: "Hey, let's have the new bad guy shown palling around with Darth Vader back in the past so as to establish his street cred." :facepalm:
 

Joelist

What ship is this?
Staff member
A retcon is a change to an existing element. Having a new Jedi be Obi Wan's son is a reason because it makes a change (and a large one) to the character of Obi Wan. Having a new character have a past scene where they reported to Vader is completely different and only a retcon if it actually changes the story in the OT or the Vader character. Just saying this person took orders from Vader 30 years in the past means nothing in those terms and is not a retcon - all it is doing is adding some background for context (which BTW is the biggest thing we rip on Defiance for NOT doing).
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
A retcon is a change to an existing element. Having a new Jedi be Obi Wan's son is a reason because it makes a change (and a large one) to the character of Obi Wan. Having a new character have a past scene where they reported to Vader is completely different and only a retcon if it actually changes the story in the OT or the Vader character. Just saying this person took orders from Vader 30 years in the past means nothing in those terms and is not a retcon - all it is doing is adding some background for context (which BTW is the biggest thing we rip on Defiance for NOT doing).

Yes it is (bolded). Could you go back in say....Stargate, and then say that Jack's sister (Jack had a sister?) was working in the SGC as it's civilian director of accounting all during SG-1 (but we never saw her), then later have the existing characters treat her as if she had been there in their lives the whole time? I wont like it if Luke or Leia refer to this retconned character as though they knew of him the whole time, and he was always "around" but nobody referred to him. And you are again ignoring JJ Abrams' MO. He does this, and he does it predictably. It wont be clever, it will be cheesy and forced and eyeroll inducing because that is what JJ does. I no more expect JJ Abrams to come out with a masterpiece than I expect Miley Cyrus to become the Prima Ballerina in the Bolshoi Ballet this year.
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
This bears repeating. ^

A retcon of this type is done only for soap reasons. And as I see it there's no legitimate reason they can't create new major characters that grow organically out of the new story line. But what they are proposing is like a perverted form of nepotism: "Hey, let's have the new bad guy shown palling around with Darth Vader back in the past so as to establish his street cred." :facepalm:

This exactly. :) Nothing to add.
 

Joelist

What ship is this?
Staff member
We're just not going to agree on this. You seem to be determined to find things to fault here. I don't really know why when every concrete sign has been encouraging. Also, I reread that link and the more I think about it the more I think this is just garbage posted to get clicks.

Luke turns to the Dark Side? Darth Sidious still alive? This sounds way too similar to some of the EU stuff that Lucasfilm specifically tossed out of the canon, specifically Dark Empire. I don't believe for a minute that Lawrence Kasdan would go there for anything at all as it was very poorly received and derided as crap by most Star Wars fans.
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
Actually Vader is not a Force Spirit - Anakin is. When Anakin Skywalker reassumed control Darth Vader disappeared.
Anikan is, true, but DV has appeared to Leia in force inspired dreams.
As to a flashback, why not? What is wrong with making a tie back to the OT for a new character? It is part of making the new movie a continuation of the OT.
I have no problem with that.
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
We're just not going to agree on this. You seem to be determined to find things to fault here. I don't really know why when every concrete sign has been encouraging. Also, I reread that link and the more I think about it the more I think this is just garbage posted to get clicks

Really? Im just calling it as I see it. A few good examples from you are the Godzilla 2014 movie and the 2009 Star Trek movie. You really liked them, and I did not. I dont have any problem at all with disagreement! :) But unlike you, I do not care if you post glowing commentary on movies I dont like. In this case, I am inspecting it more objectively than you are, because you do not seem to see any clue that the movie might not be all that when it comes out. The Godzilla movie to me was a letdown in a big way. But you really liked it somehow. The 2009 movie (the convo is preserved here) was also a big letdown for me, but only after the second one came out. I whined about the first one before the second one came out.


Luke turns to the Dark Side? Darth Sidious still alive? This sounds way too similar to some of the EU stuff that Lucasfilm specifically tossed out of the canon, specifically Dark Empire. I don't believe for a minute that Lawrence Kasdan would go there for anything at all as it was very poorly received and derided as crap by most Star Wars fans.

From what I have been able to hear, Kasdan is only writing for Han, Leia and Luke. Abrams and others are writing for the new characters. Kasdan is still answering to JJ Abrams (not Disney), and JJ is the one who hired him (not Disney). Michael Arndt wrote much of the foundation story before Kasdan came onboard. I did not know any of this last month, but now that I do know it I have reservations about this upcoming film. Why are you so adamant that everything be candy and sunshine for this next film? I know, I spoil the fun sometimes. :) Im just not expecting much. Lowered expectations.
 

Joelist

What ship is this?
Staff member
I can't find any reference anywhere to what you are asserting. Every site says that Arndt is out and his script was rewritten. They also say Lucasfilm brought Kasdan in - which means Kathleen Kennedy not JJ Abrams.

This was a funny take on it:

http://uproxx.com/filmdrunk/2013/10/star-wars-vii-written-by-jj-abrams-lawrence/

As to Godzilla 2014 we actually have the same feeling on it - it did successfully capture the tone and feel of a true Godzilla but the pacing was messed up. Star Trek 09 we're differing on - I like it still even though I think ST:ID sucked. For Star Wars VII we just don't know much but the little we do know is positive - not relying on CGI and Kasdan.
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
I can't find any reference anywhere to what you are asserting. Every site says that Arndt is out and his script was rewritten. They also say Lucasfilm brought Kasdan in - which means Kathleen Kennedy not JJ Abrams.

This was a funny take on it:

http://uproxx.com/filmdrunk/2013/10/star-wars-vii-written-by-jj-abrams-lawrence/

As to Godzilla 2014 we actually have the same feeling on it - it did successfully capture the tone and feel of a true Godzilla but the pacing was messed up. Star Trek 09 we're differing on - I like it still even though I think ST:ID sucked. For Star Wars VII we just don't know much but the little we do know is positive - not relying on CGI and Kasdan.

From what I understand, Disney/Lucasfilm hired Michael Arndt, and when JJ Abrams came on, he asked that Arndt be dumped in favor of Kasdan. But the script foundation Arndt wrote was not completely dumped as some earlier rumors say. It was taken up by Abrams and Kasdan at Abram's request and rewritten (like you said). In addition to Kasdan, Ben Burtt, Matthew Wood and Roger Guyett are coming back.

But what is not being screamed out here is that Abrams is not just the Director of this film. He is a WRITER of the film. Along with Kasdan.
 

YJ02

Well Known GateFan
Actually it says in the same article what those are - members of a private security force of an aristocrat who has an interest in Sith artifacts. So not Imperials.

that may be all that the stormtroopers have come to, being mercenaries and private armies after the last 'episode' (?????)
 

Joelist

What ship is this?
Staff member
Maybe. But we shouldn't assume anything at this point.
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
Agreed. :)
 

shavedape

Well Known GateFan

Tripler

Well Known GateFan
Ohhh ,,,how I long for the original and none of these new ideas


And yes , I'm mimicking happily along here .
 

YJ02

Well Known GateFan
This bears repeating. ^

A retcon of this type is done only for soap reasons. And as I see it there's no legitimate reason they can't create new major characters that grow organically out of the new story line. But what they are proposing is like a perverted form of nepotism: "Hey, let's have the new bad guy shown palling around with Darth Vader back in the past so as to establish his street cred." :facepalm:

it seems that nearly every abrams creation contains flashback scenes of some length

i am sure that any interaction between the new baddie and vader will be in that context

it is an abrams thing-whenever i hear his name i know that flashbacks/forwards will be in it

on the flip side

it would seem only normal that Vader-the empire's top general-would of had extensive contact with a whole 'universe' of characters we have never seen or heard of

being the top guy is a demanding job

just think of all the paperwork vader had to do :chuncky:
 

Overmind One

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Staff member
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