Star Trek: Picard

[Overmind One]

in the movie where we saw Spock come trough the wormhole ,etc, he was coming from the universe of the prime timeline, yes?

I would still like to know how no one in the galaxy knew that Romulus' star was going to go nova?

NO. He was not. JJ Abrams created the entire alternate timeline to bring it within his level of intellect. The wormhole was allegedly created by magical "red matter" which exists nowhere except in JJ Abrams' mind. Such a substance would be impossible to exist due to the laws of physics. So there should be no wormhole, let alone the time travel element of it. Second, the actor Leonard Nimoy is the only thing common between the prime timeline and the 2009 movie. That character was NOT prime timeline Spock, even though it was Leonard Nimoy. It is an illusion only. Hardcore fans see this very clearly/ The Abrams Trek is like a remora on a shark or a tick on a dog. It isn't really part of the whole, it is only attached to the whole. Like a parasite.

 

[Joelist]

NO. He was not. JJ Abrams created the entire alternate timeline to bring it within his level of intellect. The wormhole was allegedly created by magical "red matter" which exists nowhere except in JJ Abrams' mind. Such a substance would be impossible to exist due to the laws of physics. So there should be no wormhole, let alone the time travel element of it. Second, the actor Leonard Nimoy is the only thing common between the prime timeline and the 2009 movie. That character was NOT prime timeline Spock, even though it was Leonard Nimoy. It is an illusion only. Hardcore fans see this very clearly/ The Abrams Trek is like a remora on a shark or a tick on a dog. It isn't really part of the whole, it is only attached to the whole. Like a parasite.

So in STORY terms (not LICENSE terms), since Spock and the supernova happen later in time than any classic Trek episode or film how can you tell Romulus does not go nova in the real timeline? In story terms, the timelines split when the Narada arrives in the past (I earlier said when it destroys the Kelvin but on further thought it is actually when the Narada arrives due to events in the Countdown comic).

 

[Overmind One]

You just insulted me. Again! And you put me in a box. If there's one thing I despise, it's being put in a box, as if I'm something which can be simplified into a single thing. I'm far too complex for that. And you're generalizing by stating that anyone who likes NuTrek (as you call it) is opposed to the larger part of the fandom.#Clueless. You have no way of determining that. You don't even have a way of determining whom the fandom consists of. The largest part of the Star Trek fan base probably comes from countries where they speak languages which most of us don't speak. China, India, Indonesia, just to name a few examples. How many people live in Asia and like Star Trek do you reckon? Do you monitor all their online activity in their native languages on their local online platforms? What about Latin America? What about Russia? What about dozens of European countries? What about people who don't even have an online presence but do like Star Trek?

I directed absolutely ZERO to you. You feeling insulted by my general comments is not something I can control. And I do have several ways to determine the pulse of the fandom. Picard is failing in viewership. Discovery failed it's goal and that production will end at the end of Season 3. Shari Redstone and ViacomCBS have frozen all Star Trek projects and outright axed the Section 31 show proposal. There are no merchandise licensees because nobody wants to buy anything NuTrek.

This is my problem here. I seem to be the only one who is actually out here in real life campaigning for Star Trek to return to it's roots. I have zero tolerance for the nonsense I am seeing in Picard and Discovery and what I saw in the three Abrams movies. I am a rabid, hardcore, lifelong fan of it and that's that. I can't help it if you guys don't like that here.

 

[Overmind One]

So in STORY terms (not LICENSE terms), since Spock and the supernova happen later in time than any classic Trek episode or film how can you tell Romulus does not go nova in the real timeline? In story terms, the timelines split when the Narada arrives in the past (I earlier said when it destroys the Kelvin but on further thought it is actually when the Narada arrives due to events in the Countdown comic).

You keep glossing over the MOST important thing: 100% of everything you just said is in Abrams 2009 movie. Without that movie, there is no Narada, no supernova of the Romulan star, no NuSpock, no red matter creating a wormhole, no alternate timeline. You seem to be ignoring the fact that Kurtzman created every single bit of that nonsense. None of it is in the rest of Star Trek.

BTW, in the Countdown comic, there is a Captain Data. In Picard, all "synths" have been banned and Data is a mere memory. He has been replaced by magical twins "cloned from a single positronic neuron". ABSURD.

 

[Joelist]

And I wish Shari success. She needs to get Orci, Kurtzman and Abrams and their whole Bad Robot / Secret Hideout gang as far away from Trek as possible. They are poison to every franchise they associate with - the most watchable film in the recent trilogy (Beyond) is also the only one that no one from Bad Robot and Secret Hideout were involved in.

 

[Joelist]

You keep glossing over the MOST important thing: 100% of everything you just said is in Abrams 2009 movie. Without that movie, there is no Narada, no supernova of the Romulan star, no NuSpock, no red matter creating a wormhole, no alternate timeline. You seem to be ignoring the fact that Kurtzman created every single bit of that nonsense. None of it is in the rest of Star Trek.

That was not what my point was - since the move and wormhole are future to classic Trek we cannot say from a story point of view that they cannot be canonical. Now if you want to define "classic canon" as excluding anything made under the Paramount license that may be workable - I am just trying to get the licensing and story issues separate.

 

[Lord Ba'al]

Twitter. The thing is, most of your views on NuTrek (and not just yours, also the others here who are okay with NuTrek) are opposed to the fandom at large. I can clearly see that. Here, I am in a minority of one. On Twitter, your group would be #wearestarfleet which is the small group who think Discovery and Picard are just as much Star Trek as the other Trek shows, or believe as you do that if you buy something, you can just identify it any way you want (like transgender people do).

That's it. I marked it clearly for you. That's where you targeted me and the entire paragraph is the insult.

 

[Overmind One]

That's it. I marked it clearly for you. That's where you targeted me and the entire paragraph is the insult.

You are mentioned nowhere. You are choosing to be offended by that general comment and are taking it personally. I can't do anything about that. Just like I cannot blame any of you here who choose to give a pass to NuTrek which I find just as offensive and off-putting. To the point that I have taken discussion of it elsewhere.

 

[Overmind One]

OM? I am a member of The Fandom Menace. Remember I have been supporting Nerdrotic since Gary started it.

I dislike NuTrek and do not think Discovery is Star Trek in any way - it is an abomination. All I said was that it is possible for Romulus to have been destroyed in the prime universe from a story perspective. And it is possible - no retcon is needed as the event is future to any stories from pre NuTrek.

Rodenberry would never have destroyed Romulus, Vulcan, Earth, Quo'Nos, or any of the planets in the Federation or the Milky Way. He was against such things. His Star Trek did not run on conflict, whereas all of NuTrek including the NuTrek movies rely almost exclusively on conflict.

 

[YJ02]

Twitter. The thing is, most of your views on NuTrek (and not just yours, also the others here who are okay with NuTrek) are opposed to the fandom at large. I can clearly see that. Here, I am in a minority of one. On Twitter, your group would be #wearestarfleet which is the small group who think Discovery and Picard are just as much Star Trek as the other Trek shows, or believe as you do that if you buy something, you can just identify it any way you want (like transgender people do). #TheFandomMenace and the greater Star Trek fandom reject all of that and want Star Trek done on the original license which is now whole again. On Twitter, you would be my enemy.

well thanks, but that all sounds quite juvenile.. are there cheerleaders as well?

 

[Lord Ba'al]

You are mentioned nowhere. You are choosing to be offended by that general comment and are taking it personally. I can't do anything about that. Just like I cannot blame any of you here who choose to give a pass to NuTrek which I find just as offensive and off-putting. To the point that I have taken discussion of it elsewhere.

You said "the others here who are not opposed to nutrek". There's only a handful of g*damn members here! And of those I am probably the least opposed to nutrek. Then you insinuate that it's everyone against you here. How on earth can you now say that I am somehow not included in your blanket statements?!?

 

[Overmind One]

You said "the others here who are not opposed to nutrek". There's only a handful of g*damn members here! And of those I am probably the least opposed to nutrek. Then you insinuate that it's everyone against you here. How on earth can you now say that I am somehow not included in your blanket statements?!?

It isn't directed at individuals, it is directed at a viewpoint. And it is not going to change. I am 100% against what JJ Abrams did to Star Trek and I do not accept or like anything Alex Kurtzman has created and slapped the Star Trek label on. I seem to be the only one here who takes it so seriously, and that's ok. I found other rabid fans like me on Twitter and elsewhere online. It feels like the old days for me when I was part of the fan group that pushed for a revival of Star Trek. We ended up with Star Trek TMP, but then not long after, we got TNG. From my perspective, anyone contributing to the continuation of NuTrek/Suck Dreck is delaying the restoration of actual Star Trek done on the original license by somebody who has a scifi writing cred. Alex Kurtzman does not have any scifi cred and neither do any of the writers he is working with, including Pulitzer Prize-winning author Michael Chabon.

 

[Overmind One]

Agree on most of it Overmind One. Except the alternate timeline. Romulus was destroyed in the Prime Timeline....in old school Trek. Dumb to be sure but that's how it was written.

Star Trek inspired me to literally prevent all out war. The proudest accomplishment of my life. I weep at the decision I made, not out of pain, out of gratitude, because Picards character put me on the correct path as Achilles inspired Alexander. I'm eternally grateful to Trek and I don't like the bastardisation of the brand anymore than you do.

I simply disagree with you on canon points. Where's the harm in that?

The bolded is false, Jim. Like I said to Joelist, 100% of all of that is contained within the 2009 movie, and that movie ONLY. None of those events take place outside of that movie. Remove the 2009 reboot movie, and there is nothing in old school canon to suggest that any supernova was going to take place.

In order to accept the wormhole that Spock supposedly came through to the past, one would also have to accept the existence of "red matter" which opened the hole, and there is the rub right there. Nothing like red matter could exist in our universe, let alone be contained on a ship and used to reverse a supernova or destroy a planet. It is utterly ridiculous, and impossible in physics.

One of my first videos to be uploaded will go over this.

 

[Overmind One]

The bolded isn't false Overmind One. You simply want it to be false.

It is demonstrably, provably false Jim. The original timeline does NOT connect to the Kelvin timeline. In order for the wormhole described by NuSpock in the 2009 movie to have occurred, "red matter" would have to exist which is physically impossible. Also, there is absolutely nothing from the 2009 movie that connects to the original timeline when you remove the movie and the branch which came off of it. Everything you are referring to is an invention of JJ Abrams or Alex Kurtzman designed to connect the original canon to the alternate license canon precisely to attract actual Star Trek fans. This is where I divide the group here from the one I am interacting with on social media.

I never said Trek 09 was well written, grounded in science etc...I've said the opposite in fact. I believe even in the credits Leonard Nimoy is credited as being Spock Prime although I'm not sure.

The point is that I won't be so stubborn about the unimpressiveness of JJ Trek that my arguments will become unreasonable. That doesn't help my standpoint.

The fact is that the writers knew there was a rabid fanbase who would nitpick everything so to justify the differences they segued from the original timeline into an alternate timeline, even though in most instances in Trek beforehand time travel altered the future of its universe it didn't create alternate timelines.

The fact that they destroyed Romulus in a stupid way in the original timeline doesn't alter that.

There's actually not much point saying that to you Overmind One. You simply refuse to accept that bad writing affected the original timeline. Code Of Honor, Spock's Brain etc obviously being the high water mark of original canon writing .

The truth is that you won't win any fight by being unreasonable about what was done. I wouldn't buy STD unlike the older series. That's enough of a statement to make for me.

Bad writing did affect the original timeline on several occasions. But it was still Star Trek. I am done trying to explain what that means. Here at GateFans, at least.

 

[Joelist]

Can we all remember we are one family here - albeit with diverging opinions?

I would say there are more than two positions here - so far we see these:

A) Romulus blowing up is canon compatible

B) Romulus blowing up is not canon compatible

Now within each of these you have other positions:

A) JJTrek is Trek and watchable

B) JJTrek is not Trek but watchable

C) JJTrek is not Trek and is dreck

D) JJTrek is potentially Trek and is dreck

We probably have members across this spectrum. As we all like Classic Trek how about be start from that foundation?

About the Fandom Menace, little bit of history. It actually did not start over fans disliking the product but rather over the Hollywood elites responding to this by calling the fans racists, homophobes, incels and so on. In Trek this attitude did not start with any of the movies (in fact remember JJ apologized for Star Trek Into Darkness) - it started with STD and the SJW cast of big mouths. On the Star Wars side it started with The Last Jedi and similar SJW big mouthing. This is also when both franchises went “woke”. This is why the motto is “without respect we reject” - it arose from insulting the fans when they had issues with the franchises turning woke.

 

[YJ02]

it arose from insulting the fans when they had issues with the franchises turning woke.

expanse s4 is very woke in comparison to seasons 1-3, so where is the fandom menace on it?

 

[YJ02]

"red matter" would have to exist which is physically impossible.

you keep doing this

you claim that Trek is based on the scientifically possible, but when you are asked to explain how something like inertia dampeners or transporters are scientifically possibly, then you say something like, "there not, its just a plot device/ its fiction/ etc,etc, what seems to suit you that day" in response

so, if red matter is impossible do you mean it is impossible per current scientific knowledge/theory or in Trek-verse knowledge/ theory?

or, are you just saying that it is impossible because it fits the narrative of JJ trek sucking? --WHICH IT DOES IMO

but then we have the owners of Trek saying that Romulus being destroyed and prime Spock going through that wormhole as canon--- either here in Picard and in some comics or a book. so TPTBs have chose to at least in part, take in JJ trek as canon--at least those parts which occurred in the Prime verse like Romulus being destroyed and Spock
disappearing SOLELY BY including those two events into PICARD

SO, does that make PICARD not canon for being based on a bit of JJ verse stuff or does it make only a small part of JJ verse selectively canon?

without having seen PICARD other then the first ep, I am inclined to accept the second option. that we cant throw out all of PICARD as not counting because a portion of its premise is based on a small part of the JJ crap. when in fact, it seems as if so much of PICARD is based on TNG/VOYAGER etc.

 

[Joelist]

And after this last episode of Picard I am out. It was awful. And it was insulting to characters and to Trek. What they did to Icheb and to the character of Seven of Nine (one of my favorite characters) was pure garbage. This is Trek made by people who hate Trek.

 

[Jim of WVa]

expanse s4 is very woke in comparison to seasons 1-3, so where is the fandom menace on it?

Season 4 of The Expanse is only marginally more woke than Seasons 1-3. The major difference is that The Expanse is good. Quality covers a multitude of woke.

 

[Jim of WVa]

Stargate Universe is positively Shakespearean compared to Sexually Transmitted Disease and Star Toilet Paper.