Star Trek: Picard

Lord Ba'al

Well Known GateFan
Another nice part.

"He might die."
"He will. But before that day comes, I'd be glad to see him live."

I like these Romulan warrior nuns with their absolute candor.
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
haven't watched more then one ep, but what canon have they ignored?
Everything. This show is in the Kelvin timeline.
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
Another nice part.

"He might die."
"He will. But before that day comes, I'd be glad to see him live."

I like these Romulan warrior nuns with their absolute candor.
I like the fact that you are watching it without the baggage of decades of canon to be frustrated that they are not adhering to. :) For me, seeing the Romulans like this, and seeing how they have ignored the Romulan Empire and the Romulan culture has destroyed it. The pseudo scifi tech, the intentional insertion of memberberries to try and stitch this show into canon, all are fails for me.
 

Joelist

What ship is this?
Staff member
I'm behind now - this has been a busy week.
 

Lord Ba'al

Well Known GateFan
Your assumption of not having decades of baggage is incorrect. I have seen all of Star Trek and with the exception of the original series I have seen it multiple times. In fact, we're watching TNG again now, which for me is probably the sixth or more time I'm watching it. I watched DS9 again a couple of months back. There isn't a year that goes by that I don't watch at least one Star Trek series. If someone where to ask me about my all-time favorite TV shows, I would mention Star Trek and Stargate. I'm not really certain which is my favorite to be honest. I'm just not that hung up on it that I can't watch the new series and judge them purely for what they are. I don't need to draw a relation to the previous series per se. I just love seeing Picard in action again, even though he's obviously rather old. I'm glad we have this opportunity to witness Patrick Stewart do his thing again while he's still alive. Picard remains the best Star Trek captain ever, regardless of how anyone feels about the new show. Whatever happens in this new series, will never ever be able to taint the standing of Jean-Luc Picard. Only the potential to elevate him further is available. Sure, this new show is very different, but these are very different times and both society and technology have changed dramatically since TNG was made. That is something which needs to be accepted. You can make a black and white "dumb" movie (meaning no spoken words, just images and maybe background music) now and there will be people who like it, but the vast majority would ignore it, because times have moved on and people expect more for their entertainment. I'm not praising the new show right now. There are definitely parts of it which I don't think are great. For example, I find myself wondering how much re-watch value this show has. TNG has a tremendous re-watch value and it will likely retain that value in the future. I'm not sure if Picard will have this. That is something which will depend entirely on how the show develops. There were plenty of dull episodes in TNG, but overall it is still a fantastic show. For Picard, episode two was rather bland. Episodes one, three and four were however much better than two. A major difference with this show of course is that it's serialized. The story unfolds further and further with each episode. TNG had only stand-alone episodes, with a story contained within a particular episode. This means that in order to truly be able to judge the value of Picard, we will have to wait until the entire saga has been completed. Things may seem unimportant or dull now, but something could happen later on which brings things to another level and completely changes the perception of the things we have seen so far. I bet everyone has seen at least one movie which at first appeared to be a time waster, but then near the end it had a twist which turned the whole experience around and forced to rethink the things before it and made the movie perhaps more memorable than others. I'm not saying this is what I expect to happen with Picard. So far, I am gladly following along and I'm looking forward to new episodes. The end of episode four certainly brought a cliffhanger feeling for me, even though it's not really a cliffhanger, just the introduction of a new character. I can't wait to see what happens in episode five.
 

Lord Ba'al

Well Known GateFan
Another scene from episode four which I found had a big impact, is the one where Picard goes to the cafe and picks up the sign which says "Romulans only" and throws it on the floor. Then he walks over it and enters the cafe. The symbolism is strong and it appeals to my sensibilities. In a way, it symbolizes freedom. "I won't be contained or deterred by your limited scope of reality and your fragile attempt of cordoning off a little Romulan safe-space for yourselves. I'm an old man, and I don't give a fuck about what you think is right, only about what I know from experience to be right. I'm just going to walk in here and see what happens." I find this an amazing scene. In any of the countless Star Trek episodes, have you ever seen anything which compares to this? (and holds up) Then follows the scene where a new character is introduced and is very effectively established as an extremely skilled fighter. One at that, who on account of other scenes, will only fight for something considered in general to be a lost cause, willing to lay down his life for the benefit of others. If there's anything more heroic, I don't know what that is. He seems better than a jedi to me. None of the special "force" tricks, just pure fighting skills and strength of character. But of course, I'm not trying to draw the two franchises together. Let's hope they'll do justice to him further on, and don't overdo it.
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
Another scene from episode four which I found had a big impact, is the one where Picard goes to the cafe and picks up the sign which says "Romulans only" and throws it on the floor. Then he walks over it and enters the cafe. The symbolism is strong and it appeals to my sensibilities. In a way, it symbolizes freedom. "I won't be contained or deterred by your limited scope of reality and your fragile attempt of cordoning off a little Romulan safe-space for yourselves. I'm an old man, and I don't give a fuck about what you think is right, only about what I know from experience to be right. I'm just going to walk in here and see what happens." I find this an amazing scene. In any of the countless Star Trek episodes, have you ever seen anything which compares to this? (and holds up) Then follows the scene where a new character is introduced and is very effectively established as an extremely skilled fighter. One at that, who on account of other scenes, will only fight for something considered in general to be a lost cause, willing to lay down his life for the benefit of others. If there's anything more heroic, I don't know what that is. He seems better than a jedi to me. None of the special "force" tricks, just pure fighting skills and strength of character. But of course, I'm not trying to draw the two franchises together. Let's hope they'll do justice to him further on, and don't overdo it.

My feelings about this show are mixed. First off, I do not think of it as Star Trek because it is nothing like Star Trek. But the acting in it, the production values and visuals are very nice for a TV show. The message in the last episode was indeed powerful, but also ridiculous given the context of it being Romulan refugees somewhere that humans can just freely visit. The Romulan Empire would not have been destroyed by a supernova, just the home system. That means no refugees, no Federation involvement, no Romulans working as domestics on earth or putzing around in humble villages selling vegetables in the street. As a show, it does okay. As Star Trek, it is an abomination and a disrespectful knockoff of Star Trek.
 

Quetesh

Well Known GateFan
i am really almost at a point where I don't want to post on the thread now. There is a difference in saying...Well I for one don't like the show...and another to reply to someone else's post and try to dispute their enjoyment of the show.

i really can't stand it when people blast someone else's thought simply because they like something , that they don't. It detracts from the enjoyment of posting.

Look, When TNG came out tons of old timers were pissed that it was not the same as TOS... but they got over it. So, people need to understand this is not 1990 and never will be again. However, ironically, I have been doing a rewatch with Hubby of entire TNG series since show started and have already ran into countless eps that link into many of what is now on Picard. So many, it is hilarious to hear you say this is not Star Trek. Sooooo many...You want your old show back, it is not going to happen, but this is light years better than STD and hopefully will be around for years to come.

"it is nothing like Star Trek"....really? ..it is Star Trek. It is not the same as TNG in 1990s because this is 2020. They had already started to relocate the Romulans before the Super Nova, hence why some survived.

Much of the show is far in the future and not a part of breaking canon because it is also obviously past Voyager since 7 of 9 is no longer stuck in space! There is no canon to break in this period, they have been saying this since before the show aired. You can't assume you know what changes in society and culture could have occurred in this period of time, as Star Trek has always said that worlds will evolve.


https://time.com/4952491/star-trek-timeline/

My biggest hope is that at some point Q will appear and perhaps comment on some of the changes.
 
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Joelist

What ship is this?
Staff member
I agree that it is possible that Romulus went nova in the Prime timeline. Now if they refer to the destruction of Vulcan then we would definitely be in Kelvin land.
 
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Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
These comments claiming that Star Trek Discovery and Picard are part of the original canon come from not knowing the canon. This is why I have taken the discussion of Star Trek elsewhere to social media where there are tons of longtime fans who know the canon inside and out like I do. Neither STD or Picard are actually connected to original canon, and Picard is not connected to TNG despite the appearance of Patrick Stewart as "Picard" and also their version of Data and Seven of Nine etc. The events are not in the original timeline, they are from the Kelvin timeline where Romulus and Vulcan are destroyed.
 

Joelist

What ship is this?
Staff member
These comments claiming that Star Trek Discovery and Picard are part of the original canon come from not knowing the canon. This is why I have taken the discussion of Star Trek elsewhere to social media where there are tons of longtime fans who know the canon inside and out like I do. Neither STD or Picard are actually connected to original canon, and Picard is not connected to TNG despite the appearance of Patrick Stewart as "Picard" and also their version of Data and Seven of Nine etc. The events are not in the original timeline, they are from the Kelvin timeline where Romulus and Vulcan are destroyed.

Hi OM!

I am not sure that Romulus going nova is Kelvin exclusive. The Kelvin timeline was created when the Narada encountered and destroyed USS Kelvin in the past, killing George Kirk. This happened after Romulus went nova.
 

Overmind One

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Staff member
Hi OM!

I am not sure that Romulus going nova is Kelvin exclusive. The Kelvin timeline was created when the Narada encountered and destroyed USS Kelvin in the past, killing George Kirk. This happened after Romulus went nova.
100% of all the events surrounding the Romulan supernova, the destruction of Vulcan, and all the other nonsense in the 2009 movie are contained within that movie. That movie and every movie since then was done on an alternate license for Star Trek issued to JJ Abrams and later used by Alex Kurtzman to create Discovery and Picard. There is no USS Kelvin in the original timeline. George Kirk did not die on the Kelvin and the Enterprise was not built on the ground. Any connections to the original timeline are illusions not existing anywhere but in the 2009 movie and the ones that came after.

Like I said, if you do not thoroughly know the ORIGINAL canon, then you might be fooled by the illusions that Abrams tried to create to connect his alternate timeline to the original where no actual connections exist. Again, this is why I have moved my involvement in discussions about Star Trek to social media where there are thousands...millions of longtime fans who know the canon thoroughly.
 

Joelist

What ship is this?
Staff member
OM, respectfully I DO know the canon thoroughly. And I am not sure you can use which license something was made under as a definition of canon. If you can then yes, Picard is obviously made on the alternate license for some weird reason (probably because Bad Robot and Secret Hideout can only make Trek with it). If however canon is defined in story terms not license terms then things are different and the Kelvin-verse starts where I said it did.
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
A proper segue into Picard would have been continuing the events after Nemesis, which would have seen the eventual reconciliation between the Romulans and the Federation because of the Shinzon events with the Scimitar and the Thaleron weapon. They could have extracted Data's copied positronic net from B4 and overwritten Lore's programming with it, using Lore's disassembled body held over from the Descent episodes. We could have had a proper introduction between Picard and Seven of Nine.

But wait...we couldn't, because the alternate license is forbidden from using that unless they pay for licensing those elements.

Kurtzman needs to interest the original Star Trek fanbase, without having to pay too much for licensing elements from Star Trek. They paid for the holographic of Enterprise 1701D shown in Starfleet Headquarters for Picard (hello Anaheim Convention Center!), but then they showed the Enterprise 1701 from Discovery (the alternate version of 1701). Discovery paid for a similar graphic of the original 1701 in the last episode of S1 shown on a display panel on the bridge. But the ship which appeared in the show itself was the alternate version.

These are tricks.
 

Joelist

What ship is this?
Staff member
They also paid for Data, Riker and Seven of Nine (Seven's entrance wasn't bad - Data's appearances were terrible).
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
They also paid for Data, Riker and Seven of Nine (Seven's entrance wasn't bad - Data's appearances were terrible).

Yes, they did pay to use them. :beckett_new049: They evidently did not have to pay for the old Romulan bird of prey shown in Picard, because it is not the original design. The Picard version is much larger than the original. Mostly, my issues with Picard have to do with the entire existence of Soji and Dajh (who was killed). Supposedly, they were created by Bruce Maddox who allegedly found a way to clone Data's positronic net from a single "positronic neuron" :). Absurd. The show tries, albeit unsuccessfully, to imply that Dajh and Soji are actually female versions of Data.

The second point of contention is the entire portrayal of Romulans in this show. They act as though the supernova of the Romulan star which destroyed Romulus and Remus in this timeline has reduced the Romulans to refugees and primitive villagers, even as they show Romulans salvaging tech from a Borg cube (another issue). They ignore the fact that the Romulan Star Empire is spread over dozens of star systems over several parsecs of the galaxy. They would have needed absolutely NO outside help to evacuate their homeworld and Remus, and the Empire would still be intact. Romulan civilization would not reach out to the Federation for assistance. If anyone, they would have reached out to the Klingons first, since the Cardassians were still rebuilding from the Dominion War.

The third is the tech, the fourth is the changing of Starfleet from an organization in charge of an honorable starfleet, into an authoritarian regime full of conniving close-minded despots. The enemy. There are many many other issues with the show and it is not doing well for CBS All Access. My latest information even presents the possibility that there won't be a Season 2 of Picard, despite the tax award and greenlight from the previous CBS guard. ViacomCBS under Shari Redstone may reverse course before there is a Season 2 of Picard.

Star Trek Discovery will end with Season 3, and the production has been wrapped even though the media announcement has not yet been made.
 

Joelist

What ship is this?
Staff member
Oh I never claimed the show was good - it is "meh" at best. Compared to STD it is Citizen Kane though :D

Remember I was the first one here to point out the tonal issues with the show - it feels wrong. The portrayal of Starfleet in it is dystopic.

That said, going from strictly a story point it is possible for it to exist in the real timeline SO LONG AS THERE IS STILL A PLANET VULCAN. If we start hearing about New Vulcan then this is alt universe.
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
Oh I never claimed the show was good - it is "meh" at best. Compared to STD it is Citizen Kane though :D

Remember I was the first one here to point out the tonal issues with the show - it feels wrong. The portrayal of Starfleet in it is dystopic.

That said, going from strictly a story point it is possible for it to exist in the real timeline SO LONG AS THERE IS STILL A PLANET VULCAN. If we start hearing about New Vulcan then this is alt universe.
They will avoid speaking about Vulcan this season. Like Discovery, this show appears to latch on to a specific topic and not deviate from it, writing a serialized story to flesh it out. This season, it is Romulans and "synthetics". The cameos from TNG actors in this show seems pointless, since the fans can clearly see from the portrayal of the characters they are supposed to be is completely different than it should be. Data, Hugh, Seven, Riker...all are different.
 

Quetesh

Well Known GateFan
This is my last point on this thread, as I find it insulting to be told I don't know canon. ST has always been my favorite show and I have watched them all once every couple of years.


Happy Posting All, Bye.
 
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