Sci-fi elements

[Jim of WVa]

Just curious but why would size matter in this regard? A speck of dust "warps" the space around it the same way Jupiter does, just on a smaller scale, does it not? (And I would assume this applies to "dark matter" too.) Correct me if I'm wrong but basically all matter puts out an electromagnetic field and therefore exerts a gravitational effect on surrounding matter (and vice versa). For instance, our bodies have an electromagnetic field that exerts a gravitational pull on the Earth, but the Earth has one also and, being larger, it overwhelms the one our bodies put out. But nonetheless, our bodies exert a gravitational pull on surrounding matter the same as a speck of dust or a planet or a can of beans, yada yada yada.

In effect matter, regardless of size, warps the surrounding space to some degree. Here are some examples of what I mean. Notice the moon is warping the space it sits in the same way the earth does.

So, again, my question is, unless you're a debauched queen, why does size matter?

Matter without any mass would not warp the space around it. A photon does not warp the space around it because it does not have mass.

 

[YJ02]

Gonna spoiler some science (some cool chemistry stuff)/math pics but that's not what the topic is:

Spoiler

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Alright, now for the topic. Basically, discuss any sci-fi element you've had interesting thoughts about or insights. For example:

1. When Trek ships are in 'warp', I'm guessing they're doing the whole bending of spacetime thing. But that means they're outside of local spacetime. However, there is still time passage when they're in warp. So it seems that within the Trek universe, there exists at least two 'timelines' so to speak. One within warp and the other in normal spacetime. Feel free to correct me though if I'm missing technical knowledge regarding Trek science. This is just from my naive observations.

2. I think I stated this earlier but for the life of me, I can't find what thread I wrote this on. It's that Trek ships and other sci-fi spaceships must have ftl capable communications. Not only that, it would be several multiples above ftl. This would allow a whole plethora of new kinds of space warfare, crew complement reduction, automation capabilities, etc.

3. They don't ever really address sentience regarding holograms rigorously. But personally, I think a lot of the holograms are sentient in many ways. That, to me, is basically creation of life (outside of the usual biological process).

4. I honestly think with all the technology presented in Trek (replicators, deep level of trek 'physics' understanding, teleportation, etc.), the people in Trek truly should have achieved immortality. Even with just teleportation you have immortality. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't teleportation essentially store the pattern (information of the particles and makeup of an individual) then transport it and reconstruct the person according to the information? So wouldn't a person, in essence, be able to live for a long time? I mean they even sorta had that in Atlantis with the Wraith ships beam thing. And this is all disregarding all the magical bio-sciences they've demonstrated in Trek. They should be able to replicate new healthy organs to replace aging ones and replenish the blood supply by making new ones from base stem cells. There are just so many options for them to achieve immortality.

That's all I got for now. Hopefully, this will lead to a discussion since there isn't much sci-fi on tv to talk about.

With ST replication and teleportation, can't we almost do that now with advanced 3d printing and 'synthetic biology' (ppl are already working on 'teleporting' martian dna (if and when they find it) back to earth and printing it out in 3d) and the use of long range digital communications?

 

[Bluce Ree]

Just curious but why would size matter in this regard? A speck of dust "warps" the space around it the same way Jupiter does, just on a smaller scale, does it not? (And I would assume this applies to "dark matter" too.) Correct me if I'm wrong but basically all matter puts out an electromagnetic field and therefore exerts a gravitational effect on surrounding matter (and vice versa). For instance, our bodies have an electromagnetic field that exerts a gravitational pull on the Earth, but the Earth has one also and, being larger, it overwhelms the one our bodies put out. But nonetheless, our bodies exert a gravitational pull on surrounding matter the same as a speck of dust or a planet or a can of beans, yada yada yada.

In effect matter, regardless of size, warps the surrounding space to some degree. Here are some examples of what I mean. Notice the moon is warping the space it sits in the same way the earth does.

So, again, my question is, unless you're a debauched queen, why does size matter?

Warping space requires gravity and more mass equals more gravitational force to warp the space around the object. Look at the image you posted and the amount of space warped around the moon and the Earth. If you're planning to move faster than light, you'll need a lot of gravity to warp sufficient space.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Or a way to negate the gravity.........

 

[shavedape]

Warping space requires gravity and more mass equals more gravitational force to warp the space around the object. Look at the image you posted and the amount of space warped around the moon and the Earth. If you're planning to move faster than light, you'll need a lot of gravity to warp sufficient space.

So you're saying that in order for us to achieve faster than light speed we will have to build ships the size of Jupiter?

 

[Gatefan1976]

Someone make a call to Slartibartfast, we need to place an order!

 

[shavedape]

Matter without any mass would not warp the space around it. A photon does not warp the space around it because it does not have mass.

I'm not quite sure I understand your point. Photons are far from being defined as "matter". The scientific jury is still out on what they are (they exhibit particle-like behavior but are not particles, etc.). Just Googling the term "Are photons matter?" is enough to make your head spin.

 

[Bluce Ree]

So you're saying that in order for us to achieve faster than light speed we will have to build ships the size of Jupiter?

Nah. They just require sufficient power to exert that much gravity.

Although having a Jupiter sized ship would make us totally bad-ass.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

[Gatefan1976]

I'm not quite sure I understand your point. Photons are far from being defined as "matter". The scientific jury is still out on what they are (they exhibit particle-like behavior but are not particles, etc.). Just Googling the term "Are photons matter?" is enough to make your head spin.

 

[Overmind One]

Matter without any mass would not warp the space around it. A photon does not warp the space around it because it does not have mass.

That has not been established or empirically determined. It has been stated as a mathematical convenience because science really doesnt know what light is yet. But they dont say that, they continue calling it both a particle and a wave, having no mass. Just LOL! It no more matches what is observed than your watch tells the time based on anything real anymore.

But it is what you have been taught, so stick with what is safe.

 

[Backstep]

So you're saying that in order for us to achieve faster than light speed we will have to build ships the size of Jupiter?

Or create a mini black hole with gravity equal to Jupiter?

 

[mzzz]

The problem with this is, Are you *you* when you come out of a ST teleporter?
A teleporter in essence converts your biological pattern to a computer data stream, transmits that information to point B and then re-constitutes you on the other end. Is the matter when you are reconstituted the *same* matter as before, or is it pulled out of the local area, therefore making it more like a replicator without the need for a "replicator bay". If that is the case, you would not technically be you anymore, but a clone. IF that is the case, your original idea that you would be effectively immortal is correct, any disease or ailment could be corrected by altering the "damaged part" of the pattern with previous "files" of healthy examples of your own "code"

Stargate gets around this to a degree by instead using "matter streams"


30 mins to go from Atlantis, be shunted along the gatebridge and to finally appear in the SGC, correct.


Warp drive requires dark matter (at least the ones we are considering), I don't know how much energy would be needed for interplanetary or intergalactic transport.

That's handled by industrial replicators in ST.

First part's a philosophical question: are you you? I think if you said that in our universe and disregarding its possibility, no because it wouldn't be the same material and all that is transferred is the information regarding a certain particle which is destroyed in the information gathering process. Even at the information gathering process, there's information loss. It just wouldn't be possible in our universe, in fact there is even a theorem in quantum regarding this, the no cloning theorem. In ST though, I think they'd say that you are you. They probably would like to avoid 7,000th version of so and so character, even added a Heisenberg compensator. They'd like add a whole host of technologies to dismiss that issue.

Memory alpha says warp uses matter and antimatter, not dark matter. Dark matter is different from antimatter.

The mention of an intergalactic transportation/relay system, well in Trek that has been done. Twice actually. Scotty's new and improved transporter equation (as long as you have the coordinates you can go there), and the Iconian gateway system. So it is within the realms of possibility of such technology being deployed and used within Star Trek.

When I mentioned hyperspace, I heard it in a Michio Kaku video once when talking about how would intergalactic civilizations communicate.

haha, I kinda ignore the new films transporter equation. They don't really focus on things as a science concept but what concept would look cool on screen. Ahh, the Iconian gateway system, forgot about that. Think there was even a civilization in Voyager that had some network as well, forget which episode. Still, would be interesting to see it set up in Trek to sort of have a natural progression of technology and fully utilizing the capacity of existing technology. It feels like the next step, to set up a transporter relay system.

Dark matter? Dark matter is a general term used to describe matter they can't see or account for in space, not a particular class of matter.
When they refer to dark matter they're actually referring to the black areas in space where they detect energy and gravity with no visible or other detectable manifestation.

The latest theory is that the amount of energy needed to warp space would be equivalent to the mass of Jupiter. Apparently, though, some physicist in NASA has shown that it could be done with far less energy.

Seems like the proposed drive would require the existence of tachyonic matter or a railroad like track of well placed matter.

Just curious but why would size matter in this regard? A speck of dust "warps" the space around it the same way Jupiter does, just on a smaller scale, does it not? (And I would assume this applies to "dark matter" too.) Correct me if I'm wrong but basically all matter puts out an electromagnetic field and therefore exerts a gravitational effect on surrounding matter (and vice versa). For instance, our bodies have an electromagnetic field that exerts a gravitational pull on the Earth, but the Earth has one also and, being larger, it overwhelms the one our bodies put out. But nonetheless, our bodies exert a gravitational pull on surrounding matter the same as a speck of dust or a planet or a can of beans, yada yada yada.

In effect matter, regardless of size, warps the surrounding space to some degree. Here are some examples of what I mean. Notice the moon is warping the space it sits in the same way the earth does.
{pics snipped}
So, again, my question is, unless you're a debauched queen, why does size matter?

Think Bluce was referring to energy requirements to transport matter via warp/create a warp bubble according to the article on Alcubierre drive.

 

[Gatefan1976]

First part's a philosophical question: are you you? I think if you said that in our universe and disregarding its possibility, no because it wouldn't be the same material and all that is transferred is the information regarding a certain particle which is destroyed in the information gathering process. Even at the information gathering process, there's information loss. It just wouldn't be possible in our universe, in fact there is even a theorem in quantum regarding this, the no cloning theorem. In ST though, I think they'd say that you are you. They probably would like to avoid 7,000th version of so and so character, even added a Heisenberg compensator. They'd like add a whole host of technologies to dismiss that issue.

Tom Riker.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Thomas_Riker

Memory alpha says warp uses matter and antimatter, not dark matter. Dark matter is different from antimatter.

I used Dark matter only because that's what I came across while searching for "real warp engines".

 

[mzzz]

Matter without any mass would not warp the space around it. A photon does not warp the space around it because it does not have mass.

I'm not quite sure I understand your point. Photons are far from being defined as "matter". The scientific jury is still out on what they are (they exhibit particle-like behavior but are not particles, etc.). Just Googling the term "Are photons matter?" is enough to make your head spin.

That has not been established or empirically determined. It has been stated as a mathematical convenience because science really doesnt know what light is yet. But they dont say that, they continue calling it both a particle and a wave, having no mass. Just LOL! It no more matches what is observed than your watch tells the time based on anything real anymore.

But it is what you have been taught, so stick with what is safe.

Jim is right. But should have worded it better. A photon is a particle, a force carrier particle. People use the term matter too liberally, and it somewhat contingently differs from what is considered a particle in physics. The duality of photons is not in question; light exhibits both particle-like behaviour and wave-like behaviour (empirically demonstrated many times with wave interference patterns/double slit experiments/many other experiments). Again I refer to this cheesy video but good visualizations demonstrating the duality:
Continuing on, once they established the wave and particle nature, de Broglie proposed, with regards to symmetry, that perhaps matter exhibited wave-like properties way back in the 1920s. And lo and behold, turns out he was right. Again, I reference the video, uses electrons to exhibit the dual nature as both particle and waves. Broglie's simple hypothesis:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/debrog.html

 

[mzzz]

Tom Riker.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Thomas_Riker

I used Dark matter only because that's what I came across while searching for "real warp engines".

Don't really get your point about Tom Riker. haha, we don't have real warp engines yet, if it is even possible. We'll see! The trek ones use matter antimatter reactions though.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Don't really get your point about Tom Riker. haha, we don't have real warp engines yet, if it is even possible. We'll see! The trek ones use matter antimatter reactions though.

Tom is a clone of Will.

As for dark matter, that was the term I came across when I was looking at warp engines, that's all.

 

[mzzz]

Tom is a clone of Will.

As for dark matter, that was the term I came across when I was looking at warp engines, that's all.

Yep I know that. What are you addressing though? I'm not a mind reader.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Yep I know that. What are you addressing though? I'm not a mind reader.

Specifically, this part:

In ST though, I think they'd say that you are you. They probably would like to avoid 7,000th version of so and so character, even added a Heisenberg compensator. They'd like add a whole host of technologies to dismiss that issue.

 

[mzzz]

Freaking elaborate man! I was saying that with regards to the normal functioning mode of transporters, not freak accidents. That Riker was a case of a transporter malfunction. Freaking anything can happen in a transporter accident.

 

[mzzz]

Alright a few more things. I've said somewhere before, in quantum, the act of observation has an impact on the observed. Now in ST's teleporters, they have these Heisenberg compensators which circumvent Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle apparently. Now to observe something without having an impact on the something, you'd need to be outside of the standard 'universe' or 'reality' or whatever you want to call it so as not to be limited by the built in uncertainty in the universe. Basically, you'd have to be able to look inside a box from the outside while the box is closed. Since the teleporters seemingly are capable of circumventing this information loss with the dematerialization/rematerialization process that comes with the Uncertainty Principle, this would mean that they are doing exactly what I said, observing something without having an impact on it. This means the teleporters are doing some observation where they are looking at the standard 'universe' from the outside somehow. Yay? Nay?

An interesting post I found: http://scifi.stackexchange.com/ques...ce-between-the-transporter-and-the-replicator

Memory Alpha says the "matter stream" of teleportation uses some special subspace domain with which they'd be able to circumvent the speed of light. Man, subspace really does seem to be doing all the magical things in Trek. And why are there so many different subspaces? One for warp, one for teleportation, and apparently many more. What the hell does all that mean? lol, the only subspace I know is from vector spaces in linear algebra. This is something else entirely. Anyways, still think that gate system using the teleporters should be implemented in Trek. They have the capacity.