Flotsam and Jetsam

YJ02

Well Known GateFan
Not to tie this to "race", but this practice is almost unknown in non-white families. Worldwide.

Why would anyone knowingly marry and procreate with their 1st blood cousin? I can easily accept cousins by marriage, even (in a pinch) siblings BY MARRIAGE. But blood cousins?

I agree with you on the icky factor but Bluce is correct--cousin-cosanguine-marriages are quite common in many non white populations-

Shaved--there are still many issues involving cosanguine reproduction. If both persons has a trait/gene for an illness or defect, then the mingling (for lack of better word) of their DNA may very well produce "problems"
This is with cousins-brother/sister-parent/child and with child/parent's sibling

It is said that the English royal family kept several estates/ castles for the living arrangements of these unfortunate royal children over the years. And of course their are the whacks who posit that Jack the Ripper was an 'escaped' deranged by birth royal from one of these places. Hard to weed out the fiction in this English story though

from wiki on "cosanguinity defects /inbreeding"

Genetic disorders[edit]
Further information: Inbreeding
The offspring of consanguinous relationships are at greater risk of certain genetic disorders. Autosomal recessive disorders occur in individuals who are homozygous for a particular recessive gene mutation.[20] This means that they carry two copies (alleles) of the same gene.[20] Except in certain rare circumstances (new mutations or uniparental disomy) both parents of an individual with such a disorder will be carriers of the gene.[20] Such carriers are not affected and will not display any signs that they are carriers, and so may be unaware that they carry the mutated gene. As relatives share a proportion of their genes, it is much more likely that related parents will be carriers of an autosomal recessive gene, and therefore their children are at a higher risk of an autosomal recessive disorder.[21] The extent to which the risk increases depends on the degree of genetic relationship between the parents; so the risk is greater in mating relationships where the parents are close relatives, but for relationships between more distant relatives, such as second cousins, the risk is lower (although still greater than the general population).[22]

The low genetic heterozygosity associated with increased consanguinity in a population (identified by microsatellite markers) increases its susceptibility to infectious pathogens such as tuberculosis and hepatitis


from WIKI on world wide cosanguinity marriage/breeding practices:

Middle East[edit]
Main article: Cousin marriage in the Middle East
Cousin marriage is allowed throughout the Middle East for all recorded history, and is used mostly in Syria.[39] Anthropologists have debated the significance of the practice; some view it as the defining feature of the Middle Eastern kinship system[40] while others note that overall rates of cousin marriage have varied sharply between different Middle Eastern communities.[41] There is very little numerical evidence of rates of cousin marriage in the past.[42]

Raphael Patai reports that in central Arabia no relaxation of a man's right to the father's brother daughter (FBD), seems to have taken place in the past hundred years before his 1962 work. Here the girl is not forced to marry her ibn 'amm but she cannot marry another unless he gives consent.[43] The force of the custom is seen in one case from Jordan when the father arranged for the marriage of his daughter to an outsider without obtaining the consent of her ibn 'amm. When the marriage procession progressed with the bride toward the house of the bridegroom, the ibn 'amm rushed forward, snatched away the girl, and forced her into his own house. This was regarded by all as a lawful marriage.[44] In Iraq the right of the cousin has also traditionally been followed and a girl breaking the rule without the consent of the ibn 'amm could have ended up murdered by him.[45] The Syrian city of Aleppo during the 19th century featured a rate of cousin marriage among the elite of 24% according to one estimate, a figure that masked widespread variation: some leading families had none or only one cousin marriage, while others had rates approaching 70%. Cousin marriage rates were highest among women,[clarification needed] merchant families, and older well-established families.[46]

In-marriage was less frequent in the late pre-Islamic Hijaz than in ancient Egypt. It existed in Medina during Muhammad's time but at less than today's rates.[47] In Egypt estimates from the late 19th and early 20th century state variously that either 80 percent of fellahin married first cousins or two-thirds married them if they existed. One source from the 1830s states that cousin marriage was less common in Cairo than in other areas. In traditional Syria-Palestina, if a girl had no ibn 'amm (father's brother's son) or he renounced his right to her, the next in line was traditionally theibn khal (mother's brother's son) and then other relatives. Raphael Patai however reported that this custom loosened in the years preceding his 1947 study.[44] In ancient Persia the Achaemenid kings habitually married their cousins and nieces,[48] while between the 1940s and 1970s the percentage of Iranian cousin marriages increased from 34 to 44%.[49] Cousin marriage among native Middle Eastern Jews is generally far higher than among the European Ashkenazim, who assimilated European marital practices after the diaspora.[50]

According to anthropologist Ladislav Holý, cousin marriage is not an independent phenomenon but rather one expression of a wider Middle Eastern preference for agnatic solidarity, or solidarity with one's father's lineage. According to Holý the oft-quoted reason for cousin marriage of keeping property in the family is, in the Middle Eastern case, just one specific manifestation of keeping intact a family's whole "symbolic capital."[51] Close agnatic marriage has also been seen as a result of the conceptualization of men as responsible for the control of the conduct of women.[52]Honor is another reason for cousin marriage: while the natal family may lose influence over the daughter through marriage to an outsider, marrying her in their kin group allows them to help prevent dishonorable outcomes like either attacks on her or her own unchaste behavior.[53] Pragmatic reasons for the husband, such as warmer relations with his father-in-law, and those for parents of both spouses, like reduced bride price and access to the labor of the daughter's children, also contribute.[54][55] Throughout Middle Eastern history cousin marriage has been both praised and discouraged by various writers and authorities.[56]

A 2009 study found that many Arab countries display some of the highest rates of consanguineous marriages in the world, and that first cousin marriages which may reach 25-30% of all marriages.[57] In Qatar, Yemen, and UAE, consanguinity rates are increasing in the current generation. Research among Arabs and worldwide has indicated that consanguinity could have an effect on some reproductive health parameters such as postnatal mortality and rates of congenital malformations.[58]

Middle Eastern parallel-cousin marriage[edit]
Andrey Korotayev claimed that Islamization was a strong and significant predictor of parallel cousin (father's brother's daughter - FBD) marriage. He has shown that while there is a clear functional connection between Islam and FBD marriage, the prescription to marry a FBD does not appear to be sufficient to persuade people to actually marry thus, even if the marriage brings with it economic advantages. According to Korotayev, a systematic acceptance of parallel-cousin marriage took place when Islamization occurred together with Arabization.[59]

Africa[edit]
Cousin marriage rates from most African nations outside the Middle East are unknown. It is however estimated that 35–50% of all sub-Saharan African populations either prefer or accept cousin marriages.[60] In Nigeria, the most populous country of Africa, the three largest tribes in order of size are the Hausa, Yoruba, and Igbo.[61] The Hausa are overwhelmingly Muslim, though followers of traditional religions do exist. Muslim Hausa practice cousin marriage preferentially, and polygyny is allowed if the husband can support multiple wives.[62] The book Baba of Karo presents one prominent portrayal of Hausa life: according to its English coauthor, it is unknown for Hausa women to be unmarried for any great length of time after around the age of fourteen.[63] Divorce can be accomplished easily by either the male or the female, but females must then remarry.[64] Even for a man, lacking a spouse is looked down upon.[65] Baba of Karo's first of four marriages was to her second cousin. She recounts in the book that her good friend married the friend's first cross cousin.[66]

The Yoruba people are 50% Muslim, 40% Christian, and 10% adherent of their own indigenous religious traditions.[67] A 1974 study analyzed Yoruba marriages in the town Oka Akoko, finding that among a sample of highly polygynous marriages having an average of about three wives, 51% of all pairings were consanguineous. These included not only cousin marriages but also uncle-niece unions. Reportedly it is a custom that in such marriages at least one spouse must be a relative, and generally such spouses were the preferred or favorite wives in the marriage and gave birth to more children. However, it must be emphasized that this was not a general study of Yoruba, but only of highly polygynous Yoruba residing in Oka Akoko.[68] Finally, the Igbo people of southern Nigeria specifically prohibit both parallel- and cross-cousin marriage, though polygyny is common. Men are forbidden to marry within their own patrilineage or those of their mother or father's mother and must marry outside their own village. Igbo are almost entirely Christian, having converted heavily under colonialism.[69]

In Ethiopia most of the population were historically rigidly opposed to cousin marriage, and could consider up to third cousins the equivalent of brother and sister, with marriage at least ostensibly prohibited out to sixth cousins.[70] They also took affinal prohibitions very seriously. The prospect of a man marrying a former wife's "sister" was seen as incest, and conversely for a woman and her former husband's "brother."[71] Though Muslims make up over a third of the Ethiopian population, and Islam has been present in the country since the time of Muhammad, cross-cousin marriage is very rare among most Ethiopian Muslims.[72] In contrast to the Nigerian situation, in Ethiopia Islam cannot be identified with particular tribal groups and is found across most of them, and conversions between religions are comparatively common.[73] But exceptions to these rules include the overwhelmingly Muslim Somali and Afar peoples, who respectively make up 6.2% and 1.73% of the population.[74] The Afar practice a form of cousin marriage called absuma that is arranged at birth and can be forced.[75]

China[edit]
Further information: Chinese marriage
Confucius described marriage as "the union of two surnames, in friendship and in love."[76] In ancient China there is evidence that in some cases two clans had a longstanding arrangement wherein they would only marry members of the other clan. Some men also practiced sororate marriage, that is, a marriage to a former wife's sister or a polygynous marriage to both sisters. This would have the effect of eliminating parallel-cousin marriage as an option but would leave cross-cousin marriage acceptable.[77] In the ancient system of the Erya dating from around the 3rd century B.C., the words for the two types of cross cousins were identical, with father's brother's children and mother's sister's children both being distinct.[78] However, it is evident that whereas it may not have been permissible at that time, marriage with the mother's sister's children also became possible by the third century A.D.[79] Eventually the mother's sister's children and cross cousins shared one set of terms, with only the father's brother's children retaining a separate set.[80] This usage remains today, with biao cousins considered "outside" and paternal tang cousins being of the same house.[81] There were also some periods in Chinese history where all cousin marriage was legally prohibited, as law codes dating from the Ming Dynasty attest. However, enforcement proved difficult and by the subsequent Qing Dynasty the former laws had been restored.[82]

The following is a Chinese poem by Po Chu-yi (A.D. 772–846).[83]

In Ku-feng hsien, in the district of Ch'u chou [Kiangsu]
Is a village called Chu Ch'en [the names of the two clans].
There are only two clans there
Which have intermarried for many generations.
Anthropologist Francis Hsu described mother's brother's daughter as being the most preferred type of Chinese cousin marriage, mother's sister's daughter as being tolerated, and father's brother's daughter (FBD) as being disfavored.[84] Some writers report this last form as being nearly incestuous.[85] One proposed explanation is that in FBD marriage the daughter does not change her surname throughout her life, so the marriage does not result in an extension of the father's kinship ties. In Chinese culture these patrilineal ties are most important in determining the closeness of a relation.[86] In the case of the MZD marriage there are no such ties and consequently this may not even be viewed as cousin marriage. Finally, one reason that MBD marriage is often most common may be the typically greater emotional warmth between a man and his mother's side of the family.[87] Later analyses have found regional variation in these patterns: in some rural areas where cousin marriage is still common, MBD is not preferred but merely acceptable, similar to MZD.[85] By the early to mid-twentieth century, anthropologists described cross-cousin marriage in China as "still permissible...but...generally obsolete" or as "permitted but not encouraged.
 

YJ02

Well Known GateFan
Here is an interesting more recent article on the subject

one excerpt:

One doctor calculated from the study's findings that "almost 10,000 children will be stillborn or born with birth defects this year in the United States from first-cousin marriages. Not marrying a cousin is a more potent remedy than many of the medications we prescribe for heart attacks." Perhaps states should at least require cousins to get genetic counseling before marrying, as Maine has done.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...the_love_that_dare_not_speak_its_surname.html
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
Here is an interesting more recent article on the subject

one excerpt:

One doctor calculated from the study's findings that "almost 10,000 children will be stillborn or born with birth defects this year in the United States from first-cousin marriages. Not marrying a cousin is a more potent remedy than many of the medications we prescribe for heart attacks." Perhaps states should at least require cousins to get genetic counseling before marrying, as Maine has done.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...the_love_that_dare_not_speak_its_surname.html

IIRC, most Jewish families are requested to get genetic counselling due to Tay-Sachs disease.
 

shavedape

Well Known GateFan
Here is an interesting more recent article on the subject

one excerpt:

One doctor calculated from the study's findings that "almost 10,000 children will be stillborn or born with birth defects this year in the United States from first-cousin marriages. Not marrying a cousin is a more potent remedy than many of the medications we prescribe for heart attacks." Perhaps states should at least require cousins to get genetic counseling before marrying, as Maine has done.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...the_love_that_dare_not_speak_its_surname.html

Couple things:

I would think poor nutrition and lifestyle factors would play just as much factor as genetic issues in these cases.

And also keep in mind that there are probably just as many cousin/cousin pregnancies occurring outside of marriage than actually in marriage. A friend of mine did social work out in Oregon years ago where they would help train young single women (girls) "life skills" so they could learn how to navigate such basic things as applying for jobs and registering for school. I remember Gloria telling me that she was shocked to learn one of the girls was sleeping with her cousin. This shock abated after awhile because she learned that it wasn't an isolated incident as other young women there did much the same.

So, in today's world I'd take marriage statistics worth a grain of salt because it doesn't represent what's truly going on out there.
 

YJ02

Well Known GateFan
Couple things:

I would think poor nutrition and lifestyle factors would play just as much factor as genetic issues in these cases.

And also keep in mind that there are probably just as many cousin/cousin pregnancies occurring outside of marriage than actually in marriage. A friend of mine did social work out in Oregon years ago where they would help train young single women (girls) "life skills" so they could learn how to navigate such basic things as applying for jobs and registering for school. I remember Gloria telling me that she was shocked to learn one of the girls was sleeping with her cousin. This shock abated after awhile because she learned that it wasn't an isolated incident as other young women there did much the same.

So, in today's world I'd take marriage statistics worth a grain of salt because it doesn't represent what's truly going on out there.

Hey, you already know about me-if ppl want to do it consensual, then go for it. So long as they are willing to deal with the possibility of a deformed child or a mentally retarded one, or any other number of diseases.

First cousin cosanguinity is nearly has dangerous as parent child/ parent' sibling and child relations; like Russian roulette but with a smaller calibre weapon
 

shavedape

Well Known GateFan
Hey, you already know about me-if ppl want to do it consensual, then go for it. So long as they are willing to deal with the possibility of a deformed child or a mentally retarded one, or any other number of diseases.

First cousin cosanguinity is nearly has dangerous as parent child/ parent' sibling and child relations; like Russian roulette but with a smaller calibre weapon

Sigh... :moody:

You don't really want me to waste time trying to argue about your pseudo incest thing, right? As I said before, problems arise when it becomes a generational thing in an isolated area. But if we're talking about a one-off cousin/cousin coupling it's not that big of a deal.

The bottom line is that many cultures for many, many, many years have sanctioned cousin/cousin couplings as normal. Hell, some even sanction uncle/niece couplings, which I think is personally going too far as the genetic mixing there is too close. At least with cousin/cousin mixing you have more genes in the mix.

Also, this isn't just an arab thing, it's been done in Europe too. Case in point, the famous banking family the Rothchild's made it a practice early on in the building of their empire to only marry "in house". Uncles married nieces, cousins married cousins, all so they could close ranks and keep strangers out of the business. Don't know what the rate of genetic mutation was in the family, but it didn't seem to stop them from becoming the richest dynasty in the world at one point.

At any rate, I, personally, have no interest in marrying a cousin, and if I did it would be a moot point in terms of fathering children with genetic mutations as I'm gay, so chances are my spouse would simply poop out whatever babies I put up inside him.

Aw yeah! I went there! :crazy homer face::happy0007::joy:
 

Rac80

The Belle of the Ball
recently caught an episode of The Red Road on the sundance channel- Jason Momoa plays a bad-ass native american. his baby mama (Lisa Bonet) is in it too. (at least I don't think they got married.) gone is the dreadlocks and scruffy beard from SGA...he is one hot guy still! ;)
 

YJ02

Well Known GateFan
Sigh... :moody:

You don't really want me to waste time trying to argue about your pseudo incest thing, right? As I said before, problems arise when it becomes a generational thing in an isolated area. But if we're talking about a one-off cousin/cousin coupling it's not that big of a deal.

The bottom line is that many cultures for many, many, many years have sanctioned cousin/cousin couplings as normal. Hell, some even sanction uncle/niece couplings, which I think is personally going too far as the genetic mixing there is too close. At least with cousin/cousin mixing you have more genes in the mix.

Also, this isn't just an arab thing, it's been done in Europe too. Case in point, the famous banking family the Rothchild's made it a practice early on in the building of their empire to only marry "in house". Uncles married nieces, cousins married cousins, all so they could close ranks and keep strangers out of the business. Don't know what the rate of genetic mutation was in the family, but it didn't seem to stop them from becoming the richest dynasty in the world at one point.

At any rate, I, personally, have no interest in marrying a cousin, and if I did it would be a moot point in terms of fathering children with genetic mutations as I'm gay, so chances are my spouse would simply poop out whatever babies I put up inside him.

Aw yeah! I went there! :crazy homer face::happy0007::joy:


Like I said-if ppl what to deal with the possiblities, then let them. And if the law says its incest-then it is

In today's society though, there is simply no reason to produce kids with your cousin-not unless you are some shut in, virtual prisoner in say a gated and guarded pseudo religious cult community.

Or its someone who is just afraid to talk to strangers and goes for the ick factor of screwing the person who grew up with

1st cousin repro is just one step away from either parent child or uncle/niece repro.

And, i am quite sure that if the map I posted showed the commonly held vox popular perspective of the "red states" being backward and 'cousin screwing land' instead of the reverse, than some opinions would be much different .

I guess it is just hard to accept that leftie lib strongholds like California and NY are for 1st cousin marriage.

Funny, how the areas of our nation considered "advanced" still practice the same reproductive behavior as many third world nations do. :anim_59:
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
Like I said-if ppl what to deal with the possiblities, then let them. And if the law says its incest-then it is

In today's society though, there is simply no reason to produce kids with your cousin-not unless you are some shut in, virtual prisoner in say a gated and guarded pseudo religious cult community.

OR, if you thought you were preserving some sort of "purity" or a "bloodline".

Or its someone who is just afraid to talk to strangers and goes for the ick factor of screwing the person who grew up with

1st cousin repro is just one step away from either parent child or uncle/niece repro.

Agree.

And, i am quite sure that if the map I posted showed the commonly held vox popular perspective of the "red states" being backward and 'cousin screwing land' instead of the reverse, than some opinions would be much different .

I guess it is just hard to accept that leftie lib strongholds like California and NY are for 1st cousin marriage.

Funny, how the areas of our nation considered "advanced" still practice the same reproductive behavior as many third world nations do. :anim_59:

I would argue that second bolded. :) I doubt this is anything widely practiced in southern California or in any urban areas in any state. It seems to be the bane of areas with sparse populations which have fewer sexual choices available. The "leftie lib" strongholds are the richest, most productive parts of this nation. Without "leftie libs", this would be a third world nation full of illiterates and rural folk cleaning shotguns and going to church. :). But conservatives are still viable. Just not within the GOP or Tea Party. A party combining the social liberalism of the left with a bit of nationalism on the right (without religion), would be a powerhouse.
 

shavedape

Well Known GateFan
Like I said-if ppl what to deal with the possiblities, then let them. And if the law says its incest-then it is

In today's society though, there is simply no reason to produce kids with your cousin-not unless you are some shut in, virtual prisoner in say a gated and guarded pseudo religious cult community.

Or its someone who is just afraid to talk to strangers and goes for the ick factor of screwing the person who grew up with

1st cousin repro is just one step away from either parent child or uncle/niece repro.

And, i am quite sure that if the map I posted showed the commonly held vox popular perspective of the "red states" being backward and 'cousin screwing land' instead of the reverse, than some opinions would be much different .

I guess it is just hard to accept that leftie lib strongholds like California and NY are for 1st cousin marriage.

Funny, how the areas of our nation considered "advanced" still practice the same reproductive behavior as many third world nations do. :anim_59:

So...is it okay for me to stick it in my cousin's pooper or not? :daniel_new004:
 

YJ02

Well Known GateFan
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/...care_n_5158966.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

Let's hope this girl doesn't have unprotected copulation and never hands down her genes.


"I just don’t care because I’ve already been through a lot of bullshit and my car is, like, pretty expensive and now I have to fix it," she told a responding officer two days after the Sept. 20 collision. "I’m kind of pissed off that the cyclist has hit the side of my car. I don’t agree that people texting and driving could hit a cyclist. I wasn’t on my phone when I hit the cyclist."
 

Overmind One

GateFans Gatemaster
Staff member
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/...care_n_5158966.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

Let's hope this girl doesn't have unprotected copulation and never hands down her genes.


"I just don’t care because I’ve already been through a lot of bullshit and my car is, like, pretty expensive and now I have to fix it," she told a responding officer two days after the Sept. 20 collision. "I’m kind of pissed off that the cyclist has hit the side of my car. I don’t agree that people texting and driving could hit a cyclist. I wasn’t on my phone when I hit the cyclist."

This dumb bitch will most likely not be driving legally for a while. But I would bet money she will ignore her revoked license and drive anyway. :( I can tell by her comments on Facebook that she was not raised properly. She is 100% self-centered and what a bitch! The whole world revolves around her, the poor little princess.
 

YJ02

Well Known GateFan
This dumb bitch will most likely not be driving legally for a while. But I would bet money she will ignore her revoked license and drive anyway. :( I can tell by her comments on Facebook that she was not raised properly. She is 100% self-centered and what a bitch! The whole world revolves around her, the poor little princess.

Hey easy, remember she is an Australian and they only do these kinds of things for good reason. Unlike Americans. If she were American-then she would be a "100% self-centered bitch"
:anim_59:
 

shavedape

Well Known GateFan
Australian you say? Hmmm... :daniel_new004:
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
Bitch deserves to loose her licence for years. If she loses her licence again, the RTA has the option of slapping her with an automatic 5 year suspension. Seriously though, she should have been charged with vehicular battery and thrown in Gaol, and lost her licence starting after when she got out.
 

shavedape

Well Known GateFan
Bitch deserves to loose her licence for years. If she loses her licence again, the RTA has the option of slapping her with an automatic 5 year suspension. Seriously though, she should have been charged with vehicular battery and thrown in Gaol, and lost her licence starting after when she got out.

Who are you and what have you done with our pacifist Aussie friend? :confused0076: I'll have you know we here at GateFans don't take the kidnapping and replacement of our members with cybernetic Right wing clones very lightly. Don't make us unleash Patty Hearst on your ass. :icon_mad:
 
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YJ02

Well Known GateFan
Bitch deserves to loose her licence for years. If she loses her licence again, the RTA has the option of slapping her with an automatic 5 year suspension. Seriously though, she should have been charged with vehicular battery and thrown in Gaol, and lost her licence starting after when she got out.

I don't see how she gets out of this without an assault charge. Such a crime deserves more than just traffic citations and non-criminal punishment.
 
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