Discussion between Graybrew1 and Gatefan from PM in Syfy 2/2011

[Graybrew1]

I though about something we talked about.
I mentioned the overall fanbase outlasting TPTB.
I was talking to somebody on another board and it came to me that actually we could both be right.
Yes, We the fans opinion right now ,might have no direct affect as you said,However, if you and i and many others such as ourselves keep this fanbase strong ,we could eventually, as I said .... think 20 years from now.... our kids will be running the world.... they still love the beloved SG franchise we the fans kept up and running.
TPTB are now longer in control ... their kids are. Their kids love SG.... See where this is going? This is why ultimately the fans can prevail... Just look at how many years Star Trek was off the air before TNG. If the fanbase is stronger then strong , then we will someday get another SG. Add together the SG1, SGA and SGU fans and we will be undeniable. Any who just my thoughts. Did not want to put that out to the whole board.
"It is better to burn out than fade away." Def Leppard- Rock of Ages

Gatefan1976

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Sent 05 February 2011 - 04:00 PM
graybrew1, on 05 February 2011 - 01:57 AM, said:
I though about something we talked about.
I mentioned the overall fanbase outlasting TPTB.
I was talking to somebody on another board and it came to me that actually we could both be right.
Yes, We the fans opinionright now ,might have no direct affect as you said,However, if you and i and many others such as ourselves keep this fanbase strong ,we could eventually, as I said .... think 20 years from now.... our kids will be running the world.... they still love the beloved SG franchise we the fans kept up and running.
TPTB are now longer in control ... their kids are. Their kids love SG.... See where this is going? This is why ultimately the fans can prevail... Just look at how many years Star Trek was off the air before TNG. If the fanbase is stronger then strong , then we will someday get another SG. Add together the SG1, SGA and SGU fans and we will be undeniable. Any who just my thoughts. Did not want to put that out to the whole board.



I very much agree with you here Greybrew, Once something has achieved the "franchise" status, it becomes a living entity with a life of it's own. (like a corperation) This is another reason I'm so P.O.ed with TPTB. Realisticly, they will have no say in the future direction of Stargate. They may be able to "end" thier involvement with the franchise,but not the concept itself because ultimately, they do not own it. Yet they have no compuntions about threatening, coercing or cajouling the fans to serve thier own interests.

You are also right (imo) that this is very much the point where the fans wield the most power they can ever muster. Fans on thier own will almost never have the power to keep a program on the air, because for all our digging, fact-finding, letters, rants and tirades, we simply don't know everything that goes into that decision. (though I bet some have made some very spot on observations). What they can do is keep stargate in the public conciecesness and hope it stays there. Additionally, despite what is going on now between the Pro/Con SGU camps, I very much doubt any fan *really* wants to see something that stirs thier passions so much to simply die off, so even though there is the rift at the moment, it's really over one issue within the franchise itself, and not over the franchise itself, yeah?

Lastly, (and this is out of pure curiosity) why did you not want to post this publicly? Speaking for myself here, I see nothing wrong with what you have written, nor is it "badly" written. If it is your opinion (and lets face it, anything we write on a board is only our own opinion unless you are merely providing information links and so on without commentary), why not get it "out there" for discussion? I think you may be suprised at how many people might just share your thoughts on this issue. You might "cop some flack", sure, but one thing I've learned is that if all a person can do is attack the author of a peice, yet fail to address the actual issues of a peice, then the original author has "won via proxy". If you generate an actual debate however, then all involved parties come away better for it in the end.

Cheers
GF '76

graybrew1

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Sent 05 February 2011 - 04:04 PM
Well said, I will copy and paste it on the board and see what I get.
"It is better to burn out than

 

[Stonelesscutter]

Where's the rest of it?

 

[Graybrew1]

I will add more as I find them

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Posted 13 January 2011 - 10:55 PM
Gatefan1976, on 13 January 2011 - 08:18 PM, said:
They are talking about SGA being like NCIS, not SGU.
The comparison between NCIS and SGA is extremely common and in no way a dig at either show.





I still disagree. Are all light hearted and family friendly shows alike? I loved SGA and did not find it anything like NCIS. Everytime I tried to watch that show, I got bored and turned it off. I love all the CSI's and would consider them to be darker like SGU, both they also are nothing alike. Too many overgeneralizations take away from the distinctiveness of the individuality of the shows. Who wants to watch the same show over and over again?
SGU had writing problems , but it also had alot a potential , that is diminished by the comparision to what other good or bad shows did or did not have in common.

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 05:35 PM
Gatefan1976, on 11 January 2011 - 02:43 PM, said:
All information I have gathered leads to MGM only having the money to do SGA or SGU and it was a "creative decision" (cause no one seems to want to fess up on that one) to run with SGU. I'm not going to get annoyed with MGM just because they couldn't afford to do both.




Your a better person than I am. They had a choice ,be happy with the decent ratings SGA had , or make SGU, or make both. Cry me a river, about their financial problems. They will come out of it, richer than anybody on this forum can ever dream of. If they had gambled and made both , they might both still be on the air and the movies might be coming soon. They should have not been greedy and left better left alone and kept SGA on , and when they were financially sound enough they could put on SGU. So yes I blame them.

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 03:03 PM
Gatefan1976, on 11 January 2011 - 02:02 PM, said:
Why would I blame MGM?





They pulled off SGA and would not let anybody else have it.

"It is better to burn out than fade away." Def Leppard- Rock of Ages

Syfy Channel > Stargate Universe > Stargate Universe has been Cancelled - Discussion thread
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graybrew1

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 02:57 PM
Gatefan1976, on 11 January 2011 - 01:06 PM, said:
I'll go out on a limb and say that alot of people were worried that SGU may just kill the Stargate "franchise"
Oh look, SG is on the very real edge of death right now

Stargate was in critical condition as soon as they pulled the plug on SGA. Blame MGM if you want to put blame where it belongs.

 

[Gatefan1976]

I think the order is a bit wrong here, I'm trying to fix it up from my end as well

 

[Gatefan1976]

Here we go

This is GB an my first "interaction" on this subject (I think)

graybrew1, on 03 February 2011 - 07:41 PM, said:

Okay, well you just proved my point. You might not have said you hated it. But you clearly had something against it. Who is to say if SGU had made it, that the next SG show would have been closer to it's predecessors? I think by supporting a show, even if it needed help with it's writing and was not your favorite show, it would have been worth it. So, that is what it comes down to.

Is the franchise important enough to the fans to support SGU or not.

I'm sorry to say this, but this is the exact same stuff TPTB have been saying all along, merely re-written, watch SGU and you get your movies, watch SGU or there will be no more stargate and the thing of it is TPTB don not own stargate, MGM does. How long do you reasonably expect people to put up with the same old song and dance routine until they finally say enough?
What you, and to be honest, alot of the SGU fans spouting this stuff fail to understand is that the "former fanbase" they are currently entreating (and blaming) would almost unanimously support a new stargate project as long as some changes were made.

Some fans ,such as yourself were so irate over the end of SGA , and how they did it, that they are bias against SGU and/or feel they would rather see the end of the franchise than have it changed.

More BS from TPTB regurgitated. Blame those "angry Atlantis fans" which they have publicly derided as basicly not being enough to care about, yet when SGU goes south, suddenly they wield all this awesome power? If the SGA fanbas had this power, don't you think the first thing they would do with it is get SGA back on the air in some form? (after all, we are worried about the future of stargate as a franchise, right?)

I'm sorry for sounding snippy Greybrew and I'm not meaning this personally in any way, but this is a very tired argument that I wager more than a few people are sick of responding to.

Some fans, such as myself, moved on from yet another loss of a beloved sci-fi show, and was willing to give complete support to SGU, it was not my favortie show, but it was getting better and could have become something much better. Most of all, it would mean SG was still around.

I moved on from the ending of SGA. Personally, I was looking forward to SGU initially, but week after week I saw *what I* consider to be the heart and soul of stargate being stripped away leaving some barely recognizable thing in it's place. As for Stargate still being on the air "in some form", consider where the franchise is now in comparison to where it was at the end of SGA. TPTB all but said they were tired of stargate and wanted to try something else, why didn't they? All TPTB cared about was thier own continued employment, not the fans of the stargate franchise because if they did care about the franchise, they should have walked away to the thunderous applause of the entire fanbase for giving them 12 years, 2 movies and 15 seasons of much beloved television. Instead, in order to serve thier own desires, they are now being derided by some (or dare I say, many) of the people who but a few short years ago would have been clapping the loudest.

Is it the fans fault this all happened? No , absolutely not. You were played by TPTB. Did they play the fans on purpose into this type of divide? Who knows? Few , fans such as myself could forgive the abrubt end of SGA and give SGU a real chance. I would assume some either very intelligent people, or very unintelligent people made the decision to pull off SGA and push SGU. If they did it on purpose , I would say intelligent , they wanted out of the expensive CGI based SG shows and this is what has happened. If they did it on accident , I would say unintelligent, they should have seen it coming. Really, Really, Really should have seen it coming.

Yes, the fans were played by TPTB, for 2 years they were played with all the stupid "promises" you have used in this very post to defend thier own actions, and now they have the unmittigated gall to get shirty because people have called them on thier BS and now they are BEGGING (check out some interviews with BW on YT, beg is the right word) people to come back and forgive them while still muttering the same BS out of the corner of thier mouths.
I admire your passion and your desire to see the stargate franchise go on, I think that is a goal *every SG fan wants*, but I have to ask, at this point, which group of fans is being played now?

 

[Graybrew1]

I think the order is a bit wrong here, I'm trying to fix it up from my end as well

i agree ,and i could not find some of it . too many posts to look through.lol

 

[Gatefan1976]

Interaction 2:

graybrew1, on 03 February 2011 - 10:46 PM, said:

Maybe, but what is your other option? Kiss it all goodbye. Song and dance or not. No strong fanbase =No more SG.

My other option is to tell those in control that thier product smells funny, and I'm not eating it.
See, thier is nothing wrong with the "Stargate fanbase" per se, it's just that SGU was not, to what can only appear to be the majority of stargate fans, wanted. Sure thier are crossover viewers, but by and large, you here stuff like "it was the only stargate I could watch", "the rest of the SG series were campy garbage", so on and so forth. It's not the Stargate fans by and large that are devided, it's the SGU fans who came in and trashed the place and are now asking the majority of stargate fans to help them put the house back in order and it's just sheer arrogance on the part of TPTB to push this agenda. I have no issues with SGU fans in general (and not with you at all Greybrew), but I do get annoyed with this continued "bait and switch" tactics employed by TPTB and alot of SGU fans. I hate to say it, but alot of SGU fans would not care if SG1/SGA never returned in any format at all, so why should SG1/SGA fans who do not like SGU care about it either? For the "Good of the Crew", hardly, to satisfy the desires of themselves (PTB/SGU fans) more likely.

I too, have watched show after show go away, for years now. Regardless, of not posting about it until the latest one, I have had my own private rants about each and every one. I don't care who makes the show , or who airs it , for that matter... I just want the franchise to survive.

I do believe I said I agree with you here. Lets play hypothetical for a minute. Lets say SGU was renewed for S3 and it's ratings continued to drop and Syfy continued to loose money. (and following the trends, this is the most likely outcome, no matter what). SG would have even LESS chance of coming back to life than it has now. Yep, sign me up for that..............

I believe that ultimately the fans can outlive them all, unless we disband , and go off silently into the night. Sorry, if that is upsetting but there is no fair way for this to end.

Yep, give SGU fans and TPTB what they want or they will take thier bucket and spade and go home, and stuff the rest of the franchise. Sorry if that is upsetting, but thats the way quite a few people see it.

So yes, play me the song and I will dance if it gives me a chance to get SG back. Ever. I can wait. I can eat the crow and you all can be right, I don't care , as long as SG comes back ,someday. I am willing to lower the bar for alittle bit , if eventually I can get it back.

I cannot lower the bar that low, sorry.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Interaction 3:

graybrew1, on 04 February 2011 - 12:02 AM, said:

This is where I have to agree to disagree.

Agree to disagree with what? Please, feel free to deconstruct my post, I promise I won't get offended because at the end of the day, we are merely debating a point of diference and deconstructing "the other side" should be expected in a debate, it's nothing to truly worry about is it?

I doubt either side is going to budge. I guess, I don't fit in anywhere. I can see both sides. And don't agree with either one. I can only see what is overall happening to SG. The appearance of a fan divide is what is coming through loud and clear. I hope to be wrong. I would love to have a new show to debate about some time in the near future.

It's good to see both sides of any debate

Can I offer an observation about people changing thier minds however?
Alot of peoples frustration when dealing with SGU fans seems to be thier overall unwillingness to actually debate the issues at hand. They seem to get very defensive, very quickly and resort to saying stuff like "well you're just a hater, I don't care what you think" and boom, just like that, discussion is over, no matter what thier "opponent" has said or done. How can people expect to even attempt to change someone's mind if they cannot or will not actually "have the debate"?
Have a look around at most SGA/SG1 boards around the net and you will find debate and dissent within the fans all the time, but SGU seems to produce some "magical lockstep" overmind that SGU is "perfect" in all regards and anyone who doesn't agree either "just doesn't get SGU" or any of the more umm, "unsavory" responses you can find around (not that both sides haven't been "unsavory" on occasion if we are being honest here

)

 

[Gatefan1976]

Interaction 4:

Now This is a response, Thank you

graybrew1, on 04 February 2011 - 01:17 AM, said:

My main point to agree to disagree with is, that the fan divide is not affecting the overall strength of the franchise.

Ok, fair enough. Could it be having some effect by people going "whoa, look at all the division in the fanbase online this could be a risky move", maybe, but at the end of the day, as much as we like to think the onluine fans have some real "mover and shaker" power within the industry (or at least the parts we are fans of), we really don't. there was fan outrage at Daniels death, the end of SG1 (which to this day some will argue happened at the end of S7-8), the removal of Ford, The death of Carson (well, that one sorta worked) and so on. Did it change the show that much, nope, not really. It could be used as an excuse for people who don't really want to continue SG in some format, but if they don't want it to continue, it won't, and not by fan outrage or fan adoration.

I also think both sides of the fan divide are equal in amounts of specific debates and overgeneralizing. I have been in deep and thorough threads about SGU. There was one thread in particular that I believe was called, what would have saved SGU. Alot of really good ideas about what could have helped to fix the problems with the show were on the thread. Them of course you get the typical , buy some light bulbs and whatnot thrown in. There are alot of comments that came in ,especially in the beginning that were downright estactic and hurtful about the cancellation.

I agree, neither side is "blameless or guiltless" But again, it goes back to the question of weather or not what people would like to see really matter to TPTB. Some shows really pay attention to thier fanbase (or at least look like it), and some just don't and unfortunately, Stargate as a rule sits in the latter catagory. I'm not gonna lie to you, I was indeed happy when SGU was cancelled, not because I wanted the "fans to suffer" or anything else, but as I previously said, I saw the franchise *as a whole* suffering and I really do care about that. Was it unfair of me, possibly, but I stand by what I have said in the past and it is the reason I use the same handle on any board I write on concerning Stargate.

So...IMO:

SG1 was the original show, dated now, but still awesome. I love watching the reruns. I loved getting the movies. Probably still my favorite characters of all of SG, including the addition of Claudia Black and Ben Browder. I never missed a show.
SGA was alot more light hearted. The wraith got annoying at times, and somtimes things were alittle over the top, with some campesque to it. Mostly , Rodney. But the show was well acted and always enjoyable. I am still waiting for the movies. I almost never missed a show.
SGU was dark. They needed to kill off Young, he is completely unredeemable and it would help the show to get rid of his character. Chloe should never get over the blue alien disease and be either evil or altered. Tweak the rest of the characters alittle and throw in some more humor and some more battles and such with aliens. Bring in more guest stars from the other SG. Brighten the lighting on the show, (Just as CSI NY did , after bad fan reaction) and It could have become a quite entertaining show. I made a point to watch the show.

I bet that felt good!!

Overall, I love the franchise. I really am getting tired of losing shows, when Star Trek and Avatar came make so much money in the theatres I don't understand why we can't just get one on TV.

Scifi in movies is a totally different beast. look at the 2 movies you just mentioned. The most defining feature of both of them isn't the "scifi" so much, but the action. Action sells and people will go to amazing lengths to convince themselves they aren't watching "that stupid scifi stuff". Sad, but I think it's unfortunately true. Scifi in TV however requires a hell of alot more thinking and time commitment on the viewers behalf, and unfortunately, it seems less and less people want to "put in the work" Also, the way they make thier money is totally incompatable for any kind of, well, comparison.

I actually think SGU fans are being defensive because they had there show cancelled because of bad ratings. As much as it stinks the way they took SGA away, we knew it was still well liked. It almost hurts more to have a show you a fan of that everybody is telling you it stinks. With SGA we knew we were right and TPTB were wrong. With SGU we are being told the show was bad. Both ways stink. The fans did not cause the situation , TPTB did.

Like I said , I don't really fit on either side. Bottom Line. This Stinks.

No one really fits on *any* side, because we're all individuals (especially Scifi fans)

As to why they are being defensive, at least SGU fans know for pretty much fact why SGU was cancelled, The SGA fans have no such "certainty" and all evidence points to SGA actually building in momentum (A fact I'm sure is a mystery to some fans considering how heavily S5 has been panned online

), and yet still, gone.
And finally, Yes, I agree, TPTB created the situation, it has been stated ad nauseum in every conceivable way on boards across the net, yet still they are defended by people who want to blame everyone but them. Frankly, it boggles my mind that it happens (look in the SGU board here at how many one shot "suff you Syfy" posts there are), but it does.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Interaction 5:

Yes I see your point , and I get that you see mine, but I still have to agree to disagree.

I get that the movies work different from the TV shows, but I still think it proves there is a huge audience out there for SciFi , if the right show with the right mix comes around. I just don't know if the Neilsons will ever truly represent that. They say 1.5 million were still watching when the pulled SGA off, or something like that. I would be willing to bet it was actually alot higher than that. If it was closer to 3 million watching and not being represented because SciFi is a minority genre, then they would never have taken if off to begin with. Will any SciFi show ever have a chance with the ratings bar being so high, becasue of the expense of the shows? Especially , when alot of people watching don't count.

I have to try harder to try to not respond when the two sides go at each other, because I think it is a never ending battle. Kind of like watching your parents go through a divorce and wanting them to get back together , and not being able to pick sides. And yeah, the people that just say "Syfy you #$#$" ,don't get how non productive it is ,or just don't care.

And yes , it was great to get that off my chest. Thanks. LOL

After this is when the PM ocoured.

 

[Graybrew1]

Good job , GF. I saw you had it under control , I had so many posts on Syfy back then I can't find half of them by searching myself. But now that you put them all out there, I remember them.

 

[Stonelesscutter]

Good job , GF. I saw you had it under control , I had so many posts on Syfy back then I can't find half of them by searching myself. But now that you put them all out there, I remember them.

I bet he has a private database where he stores all his conversations for future reference.
He got those messages out here pretty darn quick.

 

[Gatefan1976]

i bet he has a private database where he stores all his conversations for future reference.
He got those messages out here pretty darn quick.

Muhaahahaaaa!!!

(actually, I just happened to remember where I posted them)

 

[Graybrew1]

I bet he has a private database where he stores all his conversations for future reference.
He got those messages out here pretty darn quick.

I have no idea , I bow to the experts. LOL