B5 Third Space

[GetMallozziFired]

Guys, i just viewed a B5 movie that i never say before in my life and woooooooooooo diggidy...
Its named Third Space and boy if Mallozzi ever saw this, he could of created a whole new pilot for a new show just by using the same concept...

The vorlons created a space gate in hoping to reach God but the space gate was directly to another universe were beings of great power took control over their universe...

Somewhere down the line someone int Stargate's unvirerse something like that couldve happened..
Now that wouldve been alot more awesome than what SGPuuuu has..

 

[podbaydoors]

I also really enjoyed Third Space. How scary is that- beings whom the Vorlons were afraid of?!

But I don't think Stargate handles spiritual issues very well, at least not as well as B5 and BSG which were entirely unafraid to incorporate religious themes in a serious way, so SGU would have to leave out any consideration of trying to find God. In contrast, I just finished watching The Lost Tales and half of it was directly related to faith. Although it seemed a little slow, it was sincere.

Stargate is great at looking at religion from the outside in- "other people's" faiths, if you will. One of its main story lines concerned ancient gods, after all; and then there was the more recent story about Caine et al on SGU. But the writing doesn't seem convincing, like they're not taking it seriously. Maybe they don't know how.

It's their idea of what spirituality would be if they were spiritual (I don't even mean religious, necessarily, just a sense that there's something greater out there than what can be seen). But since they're not, they seem to be unable to imagine it very well. It's almost exactly the same way that they write for women- they don't seem to be able to think like a woman, or like a person of faith. There's no depth to the characters. They couldn't make up a Jedi knight if they tried.

I'm sure a great many fine scifi writers don't subscribe to any particular belief system, but most of them don't try to write about people who do.

 

[GetMallozziFired]

I also really enjoyed Third Space. How scary is that- beings whom the Vorlons were afraid of?!

But I don't think Stargate handles spiritual issues very well, at least not as well as B5 and BSG which were entirely unafraid to incorporate religious themes in a serious way, so SGU would have to leave out any consideration of trying to find God. In contrast, I just finished watching The Lost Tales and half of it was directly related to faith. Although it seemed a little slow, it was sincere.

Stargate is great at looking at religion from the outside in- "other people's" faiths, if you will. One of its main story lines concerned ancient gods, after all; and then there was the more recent story about Caine et al on SGU. But the writing doesn't seem convincing, like they're not taking it seriously. Maybe they don't know how.

It's their idea of what spirituality would be if they were spiritual (I don't even mean religious, necessarily, just a sense that there's something greater out there than what can be seen). But since they're not, they seem to be unable to imagine it very well. It's almost exactly the same way that they write for women- they don't seem to be able to think like a woman, or like a person of faith. There's no depth to the characters. They couldn't make up a Jedi knight if they tried.

I'm sure a great many fine scifi writers don't subscribe to any particular belief system, but most of them don't try to write about people who do.

I agree with you on the religion part, stargate shouldnt try to cross that bridge just yet, but i would like to see either in a new series or perhaps in a SGA movie ( could be a prelude to a new series this way) something that goes bad with the stargate (like that never happened) and we either make our presence known to some ancient evil (like the shadows in B5 which were awesome..no more evil walking on 2 feet plz) our some super strong enemy from another dimension just like in B5 Third Space.. Im somewhat tired of always seeing the bad guy as a humanoid...we kicked everyone's ass in the SG and SGA series...maybe its something more older and powerful that we need..there has to be other races out there older than the ancients...in B5 we were introduced to beings that were so old that we can almost say they were part of the universes first generation of life...i think the stargate franchise has the potential to show us just that...that we can screw up as a species but without screwing up we cant grow...just my 2 cents

 

[Gatefan1976]

I agree with you on the religion part, stargate shouldnt try to cross that bridge just yet, but i would like to see either in a new series or perhaps in a SGA movie ( could be a prelude to a new series this way) something that goes bad with the stargate (like that never happened) and we either make our presence known to some ancient evil (like the shadows in B5 which were awesome..no more evil walking on 2 feet plz) our some super strong enemy from another dimension just like in B5 Third Space.. Im somewhat tired of always seeing the bad guy as a humanoid...we kicked everyone's ass in the SG and SGA series...maybe its something more older and powerful that we need..there has to be other races out there older than the ancients...in B5 we were introduced to beings that were so old that we can almost say they were part of the universes first generation of life...i think the stargate franchise has the potential to show us just that...that we can screw up as a species but without screwing up we cant grow...just my 2 cents

So, You are saying we need these guys:

I'd be up for that :beckettu:

 

[podbaydoors]

Yeah! I'd be up for that, too!

You know, Anubis was pretty close to that (though he looked humanoid, probably limited by the budget, lol). He was pretty close to real, true unmitigated evil, certainly I had that impression although that was a bit undone by Threads. So were the Shadows in B5. That's one thing The Lost Tales pointed out- the flip side of believing in a higher power is believing in Evil with a capital E. Not just the villain of the week or a super bad guy who just wants to be king of the universe. But the kind of evil that actually gives you nightmares, or won't let you fall asleep at all. I think Stargate could do that, it might be easier for them to imagine than the opposite. It would be very cool. But it must defy logic and rational explanations because as soon as they do that it loses something, it's just not as scary. There can't be a why, there can only be an is.

Whoa, I think my philosophy degree is showing, after all these years!

 

[Gatefan1976]

Yeah! I'd be up for that, too!

You know, Anubis was pretty close to that (though he looked humanoid, probably limited by the budget, lol). He was pretty close to real, true unmitigated evil, certainly I had that impression although that was a bit undone by Threads. So were the Shadows in B5. That's one thing The Lost Tales pointed out- the flip side of believing in a higher power is believing in Evil with a capital E. Not just the villain of the week or a super bad guy who just wants to be king of the universe. But the kind of evil that actually gives you nightmares, or won't let you fall asleep at all. I think Stargate could do that, it might be easier for them to imagine than the opposite. It would be very cool.

Related topic:
Thats one thing I really dug in the "Hellboy" movies, the "cthulhu-esque" nature of the real bad guys. :beckettu:

 

[podbaydoors]

I didn't see Hellboy, but if something is really bad, it helps if it looks really bad!

I also like the "we're too pretty and nice to be bad" evilness of the Visitors in V and the Aschen, because evil can be very glamorous, and can sneak up on us when we least expect it. But I agree that true evil is best represented by something that's as visually revolting as it is ethically and morally revolting. That's why they did such a great job with Anubis, IMHO. He was a very big contrast to the attractive, but lesser, goa'uld.

 

[Gatefan1976]

I didn't see Hellboy, but if something is really bad, it helps if it looks really bad!

I also like the "we're too pretty and nice to be bad" evilness of the Visitors in V and the Aschen, because evil can be very glamorous, and can sneak up on us when we least expect it. But I agree that true evil is best represented by something that's as visually revolting as it is ethically and morally revolting.

I'll make this my last post on this thread about this, but if you want to discuss it further dude, we can start a new one. :beckettu:

I think "obvious evil" is far less disturbing than the "evil cloaked in beauty" concept. It's a very real reason (imo) why the whole "vampire genre" still resonates so "well" with so many people. I mean, from a "Christian faith" point of view, historicly Satan is not some horned, goat footed dude with an attitude (they co-opted that from Pan), he is the "morninglord" and the most beautiful of all the angels.

Here's an example of what I mean from "supernatural":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jPTGP4UbWA&feature=related

(ok Jared P may not be "the most beutiful being in creation" but you get my point.):beckettu:

 

[GetMallozziFired]

So, You are saying we need these guys:

I'd be up for that :beckettu:

Yeah thats it! Something that would give us pause...make us afraid..now i dont want to see this in SGPoo because the crew would never even be tough enough to handle this (think of Chloe trying to fight one of these...way too unbelievable), but for another series yes...The obvious problem that SG1 was facing, in my mind, was that... HOW can you top evil ascended beings??? Each enemy got tougher and tougher...and the Ori was the apex of power..you cant really beat that..but with the ancient kind of evil that Im proposing would be different and easily accepted by the fans i would think and would show the true dangers and reality of either stargate travel and/or exploration...

Nice jpegs by the way...really asesome

 

[Gatefan1976]

Yeah thats it! Something that would give us pause...make us afraid..now i dont want to see this in SGPoo because the crew would never even be tough enough to handle this (think of Chloe trying to fight one of these...way too unbelievable), but for another series yes...The obvious problem that SG1 was facing, in my mind, was that... HOW can you top evil ascended beings??? Each enemy got tougher and tougher...and the Ori was the apex of power..you cant really beat that..but with the ancient kind of evil that Im proposing would be different and easily accepted by the fans i would think and would show the true dangers and reality of either stargate travel and/or exploration...

Nice jpegs by the way...really asesome

Well, I can take no credit for the pics, but thanks dude! :beckettu:

As to the Ori and "ultimate evil", I think "ultimate evil" is sort of a cop out, mainly because no-one can fight "ultimate evil" (unless you are Buffy or SG1!!) Any being of that magnitude would just flatten you with as much effort as it takes to sneeze (or less). Relatable "evil" is far more scary than any overwhelming force because, well, it's relatable. To give a example, to this day the "scariest" book written by Stephen King (to me) is "The Stand". Now the background "play off" between "Mother Abigail" (good) and Randall Flagg (evil) is important to the story sure, but the main story of having 99.95% of the Earths population destroyed by a man made "superbug" and how people may act after that level of sheer destruction scares the fuck out of me alot more because it is relatable.

 

[Joelist]

Also don't forget that an integral part of The Stand was the eventual realization by the "good guys" that nothing they could do would stop Flagg - it took a complete step of faith based on what Mother Abagail told them and for some of them that step cost them their lives. But they did it, and ultimately Flagg was stopped pretty decisively.

 

[GetMallozziFired]

Also don't forget that an integral part of The Stand was the eventual realization by the "good guys" that nothing they could do would stop Flagg - it took a complete step of faith based on what Mother Abagail told them and for some of them that step cost them their lives. But they did it, and ultimately Flagg was stopped pretty decisively.

Yes youre a quite right, the Stand was quite something...i never would have expected that ending, which brings me back to B5 in general..In the end they could NOT beat the Shadows (unlike Sg1 who always found a way), they could only force a stalmate between them and the Vorlons concerning their respective ideals and just leave...maybe this could be an avenue for the stargate franchise to try..as long as that its not about the wrong set people in the wrong place at the wrong time....

 

[podbaydoors]

Yeah thats it! Something that would give us pause...make us afraid..now i dont want to see this in SGPoo because the crew would never even be tough enough to handle this (think of Chloe trying to fight one of these...way too unbelievable), but for another series yes...The obvious problem that SG1 was facing, in my mind, was that... HOW can you top evil ascended beings??? Each enemy got tougher and tougher...and the Ori was the apex of power..you cant really beat that..but with the ancient kind of evil that Im proposing would be different and easily accepted by the fans i would think and would show the true dangers and reality of either stargate travel and/or exploration...

Nice jpegs by the way...really asesome

Your take on that is really interesting. A lot of people would say that the bad guys were diminished because SG-1 acquired weapons and knowledge that allowed the Tauri to become masters of the universe and it took the fun out of it. But you're saying the bad guys weren't bad enough. I agree with that. If there were some kind of ancient being out there, it wouldn't be a matter of just building a better weapon. There'd be more to it than that.

Well, I can take no credit for the pics, but thanks dude! :beckettu:

As to the Ori and "ultimate evil", I think "ultimate evil" is sort of a cop out, mainly because no-one can fight "ultimate evil" (unless you are Buffy or SG1!!) Any being of that magnitude would just flatten you with as much effort as it takes to sneeze (or less). Relatable "evil" is far more scary than any overwhelming force because, well, it's relatable. To give a example, to this day the "scariest" book written by Stephen King (to me) is "The Stand". Now the background "play off" between "Mother Abigail" (good) and Randall Flagg (evil) is important to the story sure, but the main story of having 99.95% of the Earths population destroyed by a man made "superbug" and how people may act after that level of sheer destruction scares the fuck out of me alot more because it is relatable.

I didn't say "ultimate" evil, I said "true" evil. To me, evil doesn't necessarily imply power, what it does imply is a complete lack of our ability to understand it or reason with it. That makes it much harder to fight but not impossible. Your experience notwithstanding, most fear lies in a lack of understanding because that leads to a lack of control, which also causes fear in most people. Or at least that's what the psychologists say. It's great that you bring up The Stand, that sure does illustrate the kinds of evil we're talking about! But I'd argue that the battle between Good and Evil (Mother and Flagg) in that movie is what made it truly epic (it sure gave it its epic length!). The plague is definitely more relatable, but as they say, knowledge is power. It's what people don't understand that scares the crap out of them.

Also I think it matters if a person thinks there are things worse than death. Flagg scares me because he could kill a person's heart and soul and still leave them alive, as he did his "bride". She killed herself rather than have his baby. For her, dying from the plague would have been preferable to living the way she did.

Also don't forget that an integral part of The Stand was the eventual realization by the "good guys" that nothing they could do would stop Flagg - it took a complete step of faith based on what Mother Abagail told them and for some of them that step cost them their lives. But they did it, and ultimately Flagg was stopped pretty decisively.

Yes.
I don't think the bomb would have gone off if the men hadn't gone to Las Vegas. I like it when the story involves people fighting for something greater than themselves, whether it's religious faith, the human spirit or just what they think is right. Every member of SG-1 was fighting for something bigger. The people of SGU don't seem to really be doing that at all, and that's where it loses me. I think spirituality is an important part of the human condition and experience, and scifi just seems deeper and more epic if it addresses that. Plus, if all it takes is building a better weapon, who cares if we win or don't? We do have to be worth saving. What made the Vorlons different from the Shadows- or were they really different at all?

 

[Gatefan1976]

@ Podbaydoors

Well, the movie doesn't tell you the whole story, hell, even the first incarnation of the book doesn't. If you ever get the time, read the unabridged version of the stand.

If you don't have time, here's the actual ending:

Spoiler: spoiler for ending

Flagg wakes up on a island full of primative people, smiles, and begins the process of corrupting people again. The "hand of god" nuke doesn't kill him, it just slows him down.

 

[Joelist]

True, King added that in his "unabridged" version. But it does not change the essence of what happened. Flagg was more than just "slowed down", he was pretty much sent back to square one. And the "straight" version of the book also says they have to keep watch for Flagg. And what sent Flagg back to square one was the decision by the "good guys" to take the proverbial step of faith, concede that nothing they could do was going to work and do what Mother Abagail said God told them to do. Yes it cost several of them their lives but the result was the "Hand of God" intervening and destroying Flagg's people.

 

[Gatefan1976]

True, King added that in his "unabridged" version. But it does not change the essence of what happened. Flagg was more than just "slowed down", he was pretty much sent back to square one. And the "straight" version of the book also says they have to keep watch for Flagg. And what sent Flagg back to square one was the decision by the "good guys" to take the proverbial step of faith, concede that nothing they could do was going to work and do what Mother Abagail said God told them to do. Yes it cost several of them their lives but the result was the "Hand of God" intervening and destroying Flagg's people.

Hmm, I don't think it's "Flagg" she's warning them about so much as what he represents. Yes you are quite correct in saying the only way Flagg was stopped was due to the "faith based sacrifice" of Glenn and Larry and the other two who died in the blast. I guess it's just a difference of opinion in how we both see the story. :beckettu:.

As for Flagg being sent back to "square one", I think SK "added" that ending in for two reasons.
1: to show the "immortality" of "true evil"
2: to help explain why Flagg keeps poping up in quite a few of his stories.

 

[Joelist]

No doubt those are reasons he added the ending (otherwise he would have a hard time explaining Flagg in his Dark Tower books).

I have seen some people speculate as to the purpose for sending the four men West. Basically Glen was sent to testify to Lloyd about Flagg (his last chance so to speak) , Ralph and Larry were sent as "prosecution witnesses" against Flagg before the whole community. Stu we actually know from the book why he was sent - to witness the Hand of God and go back and tell the others. These are in addition to King's dialogue from Stu that they were "sacrifices".

While I would say he has a spiritual level folded intricately into The Stand. I would not necessarily identify it with any particular religion.

 

[Gatefan1976]

No doubt those are reasons he added the ending (otherwise he would have a hard time explaining Flagg in his Dark Tower books).

Or Eyes of the Dragon as well and (IIRC) Black house

I have seen some people speculate as to the purpose for sending the four men West. Basically Glen was sent to testify to Lloyd about Flagg (his last chance so to speak) , Ralph and Larry were sent as "prosecution witnesses" against Flagg before the whole community. Stu we actually know from the book why he was sent - to witness the Hand of God and go back and tell the others. These are in addition to King's dialogue from Stu that they were "sacrifices".

I think thats a pretty good call right there.:beckettu: I also find it interesting that it was 4 people sent to LV, perhaps as a "good guy" version of the four horsemen?

While I would say he has a spiritual level folded intricately into The Stand. I would not necessarily identify it with any particular religion.

Hmm, this I would disagree with. Whilst on further reading (DT) Flagg may be seen as a "non donominational version of evil", Mother Abigail is very a "Christianised" character. IMO, Christian iconography is very heavily used in the stand which (to me) pushes it into the "Christian camp" rather than a generic Good vs Evil story.

 

[Joelist]

Hmm, this I would disagree with. Whilst on further reading (DT) Flagg may be seen as a "non donominational version of evil", Mother Abigail is very a "Christianised" character. IMO, Christian iconography is very heavily used in the stand which (to me) pushes it into the "Christian camp" rather than a generic Good vs Evil story.

I agree there are "Christian" elements. There is also the point made that Good is ultimately stronger than evil (as evidenced by the ease with which the Hand of God destroys Flaggs people). However, the notion that evil has immortality is not "Christian" at all, as one of the central points of Christianity is the eventual abolishment of evil (through the final judgment and the ultimate fate of Satan).

On the other hand, I could be over-analyzing it. I do agree that the underlying currents of the story are pretty strongly Christian in general.

 

[podbaydoors]

@ Podbaydoors

Well, the movie doesn't tell you the whole story, hell, even the first incarnation of the book doesn't. If you ever get the time, read the unabridged version of the stand.

If you don't have time, here's the actual ending:

Spoiler: spoiler for ending

Flagg wakes up on a island full of primative people, smiles, and begins the process of corrupting people again. The "hand of god" nuke doesn't kill him, it just slows him down.

I know. I didn't say Flagg was killed. I've read the entire unabridged book although it was a long time ago. I have (had?) the paperback with the highly stylized characters on it duking it out which kind of makes it look cheesy.

I agree with Joelist that it doesn't change anything, and in fact I wouldn't expect Flagg to be actually gone. Not only would King not have an explanation for Flagg's later appearances (which I haven't read), if he is supposed to be the embodiment of evil there wouldn't be an explanation for a lot of other bad things if he were killed. I mean, look around, there's a lot of bad stuff everywhere. If King meant this a a modern-day allegory it would have less of an impact for him to say good permanently triumphed over evil, since it always just seems like it's right behind us and closing fast. I think as a species we aren't where we need to be quite yet. If it were set further into the future a true resolution or final conflict might be believable, but if he were to say it happened essentially now (which is more or less the setting of The Stand) it requires a great deal more suspension of disbelief since all you have to do is turn on the news to know that's not true.

I agree that The Stand seems more like a Christian take on good vs. evil, but that doesn't mean others can't relate to it, there is very little dogma in it. I think the primary dividing line is whether people believe that evil actually exists. If a viewer (or reader) doesn't, then it won't resonate with them. But getting back to the original question, I think that's where the really scary stuff resides, because it is beyond the reach of reason, or at least things we understand.