Sweden strikes again

[Gatefan1976]

I guess what I was getting at was the (assumed) universal belief that parents are sovereign in regards to raising their children. Here in America we just assume that this is a universal belief that's why we are so horrified by such stories.

But thats not entierly true is it? How can you even try to have sovereign rights yet demand anything from educators? You either need to to give up some of that power, or at least share it with them.
The only other option is to rely on the education system entirely (which is hardly fair on the educators) or remove them from the system entirely.

That's why the home schooling movement has grown so large here. It's a response to growing government intervention in the raising of children. Some people are just fine with having the state tell them how to raise their kids (or have the state raise the kids for them) while others don't want to give up the responsibility of raising their children. And yes, it often has to do with a clash of philosophies.

Yup, it's a fine line mate.

I don't know the specifics I admit but I believe that the home schooling standards are such that if a child transitions to public education they have to pass tests based on the public education guidelines. So basically home schooled kids have to meet state standards of education in the long run if they want to go to college and get a degree, etc.

Cool beans.

 

[Gatefan1976]

I homeschooled my daughter from 2nd grade up through the end of her "senior year". I didn't do it for religious reasons at all (I don't belong to one of those "fanatical" religious groups). My daughter was being bullied in school and the administration did nothing to deal with it effectively. After I went as high up the food chain as I reasonably could, I made the decision to pull her out of regular school and teach her myself.

Going to school should be about getting an education, and shouldn't involve having to watch out to make sure that your classmates haven't laid out some (literally) painful prank for you to fall into.

I did not want my daughter to end up being one of those kids who finally loses it and ends up going to school one day to make a final fatal judgment on the situation.

It's really too bad that so many people out there seem to think that people homeschool simply for religious reasons.

See, this is as I was saying to Rac, foreign to me. There is little to no way any kid here would have to deal with that here. YES, of course there is bullying and such, but before it got to the levels you are implying, something would have been done about it already at a school level, *provided the kid in question actually tells a teacher* The minute a kid reports stuff like that, the teacher is obligated by Duty of Care to do something about it.
As for homeschooling being viewed as "purely for religious reasons", I would *assume* that it *is or was* the predominant factor in homeschooling for quite some time and a person who doesn't know specifics of the person in question would *naturally* assume that the most *percieved predominant factor* would apply.

Oh, and the fanatics who people and fund CBN need a clue by four upside the head.

 

[Bluce Ree]

I homeschooled my daughter from 2nd grade up through the end of her "senior year". I didn't do it for religious reasons at all (I don't belong to one of those "fanatical" religious groups). My daughter was being bullied in school and the administration did nothing to deal with it effectively. After I went as high up the food chain as I reasonably could, I made the decision to pull her out of regular school and teach her myself.

Going to school should be about getting an education, and shouldn't involve having to watch out to make sure that your classmates haven't laid out some (literally) painful prank for you to fall into.

I did not want my daughter to end up being one of those kids who finally loses it and ends up going to school one day to make a final fatal judgment on the situation.

It's really too bad that so many people out there seem to think that people homeschool simply for religious reasons.

Oh, and the fanatics who people and fund CBN need a clue by four upside the head.

A good friend of mine handled a bully situation in a manner I thought was kind of cool.

He called up the boy's father and told him about the incident. The man's reply was, "Oh, you know, boys will be boys." so my buddy asked for his address. "Why?", the dude asked. "So I can come over and kick the shit out of you in front of your son and then I'll tell him, 'Oh, you know, men will be men.'". The bullying stopped.

 

[Illiterati]

A good friend of mine handled a bully situation in a manner I thought was kind of cool.

He called up the boy's father and told him about the incident. The man's reply was, "Oh, you know, boys will be boys." so my buddy asked for his address. "Why?", the dude asked. "So I can come over and kick the shit out of you in front of your son and then I'll tell him, 'Oh, you know, men will be men.'". The bullying stopped.

A very good friend of mine said, in response to what your friend did...

PRICELESS!!

With your kind permission, I'd love to keep this for future use.

 

[Bluce Ree]

A very good friend of mine said, in response to what your friend did...

PRICELESS!!

With your kind permission, I'd love to keep this for future use.

It's yours, m'lady.

 

[Rac80]

What is grade level? Do you mean to a certain grade, or to whatever grade they happen to be in?

See, that in of itself is a pretty foreign concept, not because it's hard to understand, but out here such issues would be identified and dealt with anyway, with no need to resort to such measures.

Again, this is all pretty foreign, all of this stuff you are allowed to do out here anyway. You have to provide reasons for wanting to transfer schools, yes, but AFAIK, those reasons don't have to be all that much.

I think you may be making a bit much of the "accountability of educators" dear. Every teacher I have ever spoken to in any country loathes the idea mainly because a childs education in not just the domain of teachers, it's also the parents as you well know. How would you respond if your job and pay were determined by the recidivism rate of kids you council in jail? If they re-offend, *obviously:roll:* you didn't do enough for them so it must be your fault, thefore your services are no longer required because *you* are a substandard counciller.

color-coded because it's like speaking a foreign language to someone who isn't familiar with the US educational "system" (I use the quotes because it doesn't seem very systematic to many) )

First- grade level means the grade in school that corresponds to their physical age (all mental faculties being intact of course) age 6= first grade and so on....we are graduating kids from high school (12th grade) who read at a 2nd or 3rd grade level. There is a tendency in some districts to simply "pass the child on, they'll catch up" OY VEY!!!

Second-Teacher accountability does not only focus on how well the child passes a test, but also actually *gasp* firing teachers who come to school drunk/stoned, who molest children, who embezzle from their school district...etc... some school districts in the country have teachers on the payroll but cannot allow them near children. I know somewhere here I posted about NYC's "rubber rooms" where unfit teachers spent their days while collecting a paycheck because firing them was impossible (thank you teacher's unions). Also it can refer to how a teacher handles a situation like Illiterati's daughter was in. I have seen classrooms where bullying was tolerated and others where it was forbidden --initially it can depend the attitude of a teacher as to what is allowed. we have recently had a scandal in Indianapolis where a vice principle of a high school (grades 9-12) was arrested for"child seduction"...in other words he convinced an impressionable teenage girl to have sex with him- the man has been suspended WITH PAY - yeah you read that right WITH HIS FREAKING PAYCHECK COMING EVERY WEEK!! Teacher accountability is needed!

 

[Gatefan1976]

color-coded because it's like speaking a foreign language to someone who isn't familiar with the US educational "system" (I use the quotes because it doesn't seem very systematic to many) )

First- grade level means the grade in school that corresponds to their physical age (all mental faculties being intact of course) age 6= first grade and so on....we are graduating kids from high school (12th grade) who read at a 2nd or 3rd grade level. There is a tendency in some districts to simply "pass the child on, they'll catch up" OY VEY!!!

Right, so age apropriate, same here.

Second-Teacher accountability does not only focus on how well the child passes a test, but also actually *gasp* firing teachers who come to school drunk/stoned, who molest children, who embezzle from their school district...etc... some school districts in the country have teachers on the payroll but cannot allow them near children. I know somewhere here I posted about NYC's "rubber rooms" where unfit teachers spent their days while collecting a paycheck because firing them was impossible (thank you teacher's unions). Also it can refer to how a teacher handles a situation like Illiterati's daughter was in. I have seen classrooms where bullying was tolerated and others where it was forbidden --initially it can depend the attitude of a teacher as to what is allowed. we have recently had a scandal in Indianapolis where a vice principle of a high school (grades 9-12) was arrested for"child seduction"...in other words he convinced an impressionable teenage girl to have sex with him- the man has been suspended WITH PAY - yeah you read that right WITH HIS FREAKING PAYCHECK COMING EVERY WEEK!! Teacher accountability is needed!

See, thats not teacher accountability, or at least not what I am talking about. I am talking about the ability to do thier jobs properly.
If they are doing the things you are saying here, then thats more a question of criminal behaviour and the law should be dealing with that. I cannot imagine the system being so screwed up that a "teacher" would still be collecting a paycheque from behind bars, and if it does, you guys seriously have to have a good hard look at the system. Now, you can blame the unions if you want, and indeed it seems that they play a not so small part in this, however what the unions are being used for here, and what they are *supposed* to do are two different beasts entirely, as you well know.

 

[Rac80]

Right, so age apropriate, same here.


See, thats not teacher accountability, or at least not what I am talking about. I am talking about the ability to do thier jobs properly.
If they are doing the things you are saying here, then thats more a question of criminal behaviour and the law should be dealing with that. I cannot imagine the system being so screwed up that a "teacher" would still be collecting a paycheque from behind bars, and if it does, you guys seriously have to have a good hard look at the system. Now, you can blame the unions if you want, and indeed it seems that they play a not so small part in this, however what the unions are being used for here, and what they are *supposed* to do are two different beasts entirely, as you well know.

rubber rooms are alive and well.


http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/21/10465939-where-do-problem-teachers-go-las-rubber-room
from Feb 2012

LOS ANGELES -- It’s called the "rubber room" -- a popular name for a reassignment center many say is emblematic of what is wrong with public education.
The rubber room is where teachers accused of everything from drug abuse to sexual harassment are sent to do nothing, but still collect a salary, benefits and accrue time toward pensions.

---

"Several of the people I know in rubber rooms have been there two years, some people as long as five years," said Leonard Isenberg, a disciplined Los Angeles Unified School District teacher. "You don’t just sit there. You can’t do anything. Think of Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo, with a paycheck."

it's always interesting to me how the same phrasology means different things in different countries.

 

[Gatefan1976]

rubber rooms are alive and well.
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/21/10465939-where-do-problem-teachers-go-las-rubber-room
from Feb 2012
it's always interesting to me how the same phrasology means different things in different countries.

From the same article:

Leonard Isenberg, who taught in the district for 25 years, said he ended up in one after repeatedly complaining that his school, Central Continuation High School, was graduating students with second-grade reading levels.Related: LA teacher heads to court on charges of lewd acts
He said that angered the principal, and that led to accusations of him yelling at students and watching pornography in class.

To me, this looks like a case where such things are being used unfairly. Here is a teacher who gets punted to one of these "rubber rooms" for what appear to be all the wrong reasons, he was TRYING to do his job properly, and if this is the response teachers get, it's no wonder they don't speak up when the system is failing the kids. To use you again, would you think it was fair if you were fired on the spot because one of the inmates you work with accused you of "improper behavior"?
If this is suppossed to be a "holding area" for teachers accused of inapropriate action, why on earth does it take so long for "the facts" to be dertermined?

 

[Rac80]

From the same article:

To me, this looks like a case where such things are being used unfairly. Here is a teacher who gets punted to one of these "rubber rooms" for what appear to be all the wrong reasons, he was TRYING to do his job properly, and if this is the response teachers get, it's no wonder they don't speak up when the system is failing the kids. To use you again, would you think it was fair if you were fired on the spot because one of the inmates you work with accused you of "improper behavior"?
If this is suppossed to be a "holding area" for teachers accused of inapropriate action, why on earth does it take so long for "the facts" to be dertermined?

I agree 100% that they are being used unfairly and why it takes so long for things to get worked out are mystifying to me.

a question- is the education in Oz from the national gov't down? In the USA it's many individual school districts - some states are more uniform with standards within the state than other states are. It's still mostly a "local" matter with union contracts and standards here. I know there must be a better way to handle it, but the US hasn't found that way yet.

 

[Gatefan1976]

I agree 100% that they are being used unfairly and why it takes so long for things to get worked out are mystifying to me.

Indeed

a question- is the education in Oz from the national gov't down? In the USA it's many individual school districts - some states are more uniform with standards within the state than other states are. It's still mostly a "local" matter with union contracts and standards here. I know there must be a better way to handle it, but the US hasn't found that way yet.

From memory
Yeah, we do have national standards that must be upheld, but actual specifics of how you get there are pretty much determined at a state level. So here in NSW, kids are expected to have "grade level" reading and comprehension, same as it would be in VIC or QLD, yet in NSW the "set text" may be X and the "set text" for VIC may be Y
If you are talking specificly about the Teachers Federation, then they operate pretty much on a national level in terms of things such as teacher salaries, working conditions, and industrial actions such as strikes. A note with strikes though, they can be statewide or even local for issues that only affect that particular area and no member is *forced* to strike, they can either strike and go to whatever local "event" is happening without pay, or they can go to work as normal and get paid thier normal pay but provide basicly "daycare" for children whose parents are unable to provide alternative options for their kids.

 

[Rac80]

Indeed

From memory
Yeah, we do have national standards that must be upheld, but actual specifics of how you get there are pretty much determined at a state level. So here in NSW, kids are expected to have "grade level" reading and comprehension, same as it would be in VIC or QLD, yet in NSW the "set text" may be X and the "set text" for VIC may be Y
If you are talking specificly about the Teachers Federation, then they operate pretty much on a national level in terms of things such as teacher salaries, working conditions, and industrial actions such as strikes. A note with strikes though, they can be statewide or even local for issues that only affect that particular area and no member is *forced* to strike, they can either strike and go to whatever local "event" is happening without pay, or they can go to work as normal and get paid thier normal pay but provide basicly "daycare" for children whose parents are unable to provide alternative options for their kids.

thanks for the info. there is always a big deal being made about the "average" american kid is far behind european kids, as well as japanese, south korean, and taiwanese kids. i wonder if the difference in part is because education is still mostly a local matter in the USA...by local i am referring to the school districts...not even city or state size areas.

 

[Gatefan1976]

thanks for the info.

Welcome, if there is a specific issue you would like me to check up, I can find out if you want.

there is always a big deal being made about the "average" american kid is far behind european kids, as well as japanese, south korean, and taiwanese kids.

Stuff like this probably has something to do with it Rac:http://www.putourkidsfirst.com/kidsfirst/education_ratings_US.asp and this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index
While I was finding those site awhile ago, I also came across this as well:http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2011
So while the US *may* be behind in Educational levels in ages 5-18 (??), it still contains 6 out of the top 10 universities in the world.

i wonder if the difference in part is because education is still mostly a local matter in the USA...by local i am referring to the school districts...not even city or state size areas.

[/quote]
Dunno.
It's entirely possible that a system such as ours would not work in the US simply based on population. We may be the physical size of the US, yet we have basicly the same population as Texas. To take that further, imagine our system and levels being applied merely to that state, where Aus Federal is Texas State, Our States are your districts and our districts your "locals". The structure *sounds* similar, yet you have another level above our highest that you are (I believe) beholded to as well.

 

[Rac80]

Welcome, if there is a specific issue you would like me to check up, I can find out if you want.

Stuff like this probably has something to do with it Rac:http://www.putourkidsfirst.com/kidsfirst/education_ratings_US.asp and this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index
While I was finding those site awhile ago, I also came across this as well:http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2011
So while the US *may* be behind in Educational levels in ages 5-18 (??), it still contains 6 out of the top 10 universities in the world.


Dunno.
It's entirely possible that a system such as ours would not work in the US simply based on population. We may be the physical size of the US, yet we have basicly the same population as Texas. To take that further, imagine our system and levels being applied merely to that state, where Aus Federal is Texas State, Our States are your districts and our districts your "locals". The structure *sounds* similar, yet you have another level above our highest that you are (I believe) beholded to as well.

the federal dept of education has only minimal effect overall, No child left behind was an attempt to "federalize" education for grades K(kindergarten) through 12 (final year of high school) but between the teacher's unions, the states (all 50 of them) and the local school boards it was bound to fail. Pres. Bush had used it sucessfully in Texas, but it didn't translate well to the entire country. The US is full of individualists who despise anything smacking of federal control of schools.

yeah the little factoid about the US having the top universities in the world is always a bit puzzling....for that matter any major US university has a healthy international student population....at Purdue University (renown for it's engineering program) we were surrounded by graduate students from all over the world. It was a great place for Snookie to spend her childhood- she was exposed to so many wonderful people from fascinating cultures.

 

[Gatefan1976]

the federal dept of education has only minimal effect overall, No child left behind was an attempt to "federalize" education for grades K(kindergarten) through 12 (final year of high school) but between the teacher's unions, the states (all 50 of them) and the local school boards it was bound to fail. Pres. Bush had used it sucessfully in Texas, but it didn't translate well to the entire country. The US is full of individualists who despise anything smacking of federal control of schools.

I think that right there may be the biggest problem of them you guys face in this regard to be honest.

yeah the little factoid about the US having the top universities in the world is always a bit puzzling....for that matter any major US university has a healthy international student population....at Purdue University (renown for it's engineering program) we were surrounded by graduate students from all over the world. It was a great place for Snookie to spend her childhood- she was exposed to so many wonderful people from fascinating cultures.

Even more interesting is that the UK, who holds the other top 4 universities, is ranked 30th in the world to the US' 20th. How different is the structure of Uni's in comparison to high school? Do the states have much to do with them or are they more like autonomous entities?

 

[Rac80]

Here in the USA we have both private and state run universities (none are considered "federal universities")... Purdue University which is renown in engineering (Only the air force acadamy has graduated more astronauts-- yaaay!) is a state run university... a man named John Purdue gave money and land to the state of indiana to found a school for agriculture back in 1869. It is run and mostly funded by the state of Indiana. Harvard, Yale, MIT, Columbia, Stanford and even hubby's alma mater BYU, etc...are all private universities. There are national standards universities must meet to have their programs considered "accredited"-- here's a good link: http://www.collegedegreeguide.com/articles-fr/accredited-college-university.htm

Also, there are 2 year technical colleges (where people earn a certificate to be an electrician, auto mechanic, etc...) and there are the 2 and 4 year community colleges- usually run by a state to allow the students (often non-traditional students) to stay at home and get a degree. there is a hierarchy of us colleges-- sometimes someone is like Pres. Obama and goes to a smaller college (occidental) before transferring to a larger more prestigous university (Columbia). Some sneer at community colleges but President Ronald Reagan used to say that it was "too bad he got his degree from Eureka College (small college in Illinois), if he had gone to an Ivy League school he might have really gone somewhere in life!" which always elicted chuckles. I feel you can get as good an education anywhere if you apply yourself -- but educational "pedigree" does matter in some industries.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Here in the USA we have both private and state run universities (none are considered "federal universities")... Purdue University which is renown in engineering (Only the air force acadamy has graduated more astronauts-- yaaay!) is a state run university... a man named John Purdue gave money and land to the state of indiana to found a school for agriculture back in 1869. It is run and mostly funded by the state of Indiana. Harvard, Yale, MIT, Columbia, Stanford and even hubby's alma mater BYU, etc...are all private universities. There are national standards universities must meet to have their programs considered "accredited"-- here's a good link: http://www.collegedegreeguide.com/articles-fr/accredited-college-university.htm

Sounds very similar to what we have here, athough we don't seem to have as many private uni's, again, this could be a function of population more than anything else.

Also, there are 2 year technical colleges (where people earn a certificate to be an electrician, auto mechanic, etc...) and there are the 2 and 4 year community colleges- usually run by a state to allow the students (often non-traditional students) to stay at home and get a degree. there is a hierarchy of us colleges-- sometimes someone is like Pres. Obama and goes to a smaller college (occidental) before transferring to a larger more prestigous university (Columbia). Some sneer at community colleges but President Ronald Reagan used to say that it was "too bad he got his degree from Eureka College (small college in Illinois), if he had gone to an Ivy League school he might have really gone somewhere in life!" which always elicted chuckles. I feel you can get as good an education anywhere if you apply yourself -- but educational "pedigree" does matter in some industries.

We have a similar system, TAFE, (Technichal And Furthur Education)
On the whole the *Systems* in of themselves feel very similar, the only difference I can seem to determine is the level of Federal involvement in the school system out here as opposed to there. Perhaps there is *something* to be said for giving up a little "personal autonomy" in the system, not perhaps to the degree that sparked this initial discussion, but at least some.