Star Trek vs. Star Wars! Let the match begin!

[Overmind One]

I think some of you are really getting pulled into the weeds on some of this stuff.

It is fantasy set in space with a "Sciency" feel -they use terms like "flux capacitor" which the fans know is nonsense, but we know it doesn't matter, any science in SW's real or imagined doesn't matter, it is nothing more then a prop or backdrop.

THIS notion is why those who are not Star Trek or high science fiction fans miss the point. Sorry, but actual science or at least a future interpretation of it IS important to science fiction. A "flux capacitor" is nonsense, unless you have explained what it does for whatever it is you are discussing. If you have a car, then the term "ignition system" actually means something. It involves the key switch, the car battery and a starter motor and an alternator. I am no car nut, but I understand that. I know that if the alternator goes out, even the fully charged car battery will not help me. So, if I refer to a "Wummox Flux Initiator (ignition system)", and I turn a Flipoz Shard (the key), and I have a fully charged Boron Cell (battery), and my Flux Space Drive does not initiate, that perhaps the "Flux Capacitor" (the alternator) is bad. See how that works? Star Trek does this ALL THE TIME. If you have no idea what an ignition system in a car is, my little analogy becomes nothing more than "technobabble".

Like Lucas said a long time ago about SW's, to the effect of "we watch movies with cars and other machines but we don't require the movie make to explain the internal combustion engine"- its been awhile since I read that, so its from memory. Just as cars are props in other movies, so too, are the ships and the other "Sciency things" in SW's

Star Wars fans generally do not understand or care to understand high science. Some people actually WANT the explanations connected to technology they see in science fiction. Like in SG-1 and Star Trek and movies like Fantastic Voyage and Andromeda Strain. Don't show me a 4-cylinder car smoking a V-12 Ferrari in a race and then expect me to swallow it without explanation. That is what NuTrek wants me to do, and Star Wars does not care if I accept it or not.

ST started out with a focus on science, capturing the public's attn on space due to things like the Mercury and Apollo programs. PPl then were in a much more science receptive state. So a "imagined" show like ST with science used in it, was acceptable for the time (and even more acceptable later)-it was probably the show's pushing of social bounds (Uhura and Kirk kissing,etc) that helped to kill the show in the 60's. People and enough preachy demonstrators in the streets in reality, they didn't want to be preached to in their TV sci fi as well

Star Trek started as a serial drama in space, in the vein of the westerns which were on at the time. It was not until season 2 and 3 that social commentary and science came into the mix in the TV show. It was not until TNG that gene's vision took shape the way he envisioned it: focus on science and social commentary.

SW started as a story about a family set in space and on planets. It is about a quest of the underdog against the power that existed. It NEVER claimed to be sci fi

"Sci fi" was a classification assigned to it by the studios and their PR and marketing ppl-Lucas let it happen because he wanted his film to be seen in mainstream theatres

No, it never claimed to be scifi. But many of it's fans do. Many INSIST that it is science fiction.

SW's has been assigned to sci-fi category just like we see stuff like LOTR's getting assigned to sci fi area in libraries and book stores; ppl who do not know better-or just don't care and are striving for bookshop efficiency, just lump fantasy in with sci-fi for reasons that have nothing to do with what the story actually is about.

That is true. But there are still a whole lot of us out here who do indeed care, and we are sticklers for precision. I do not just want "a sandwich". I want romaine lettuce, Roma tomatoes, smoked turkey and provolone cheese on toasted wheat.

as such, anything can be done in a fantasy film-so long as it does not piss off the core fans--like Jackson did with HOBBIT and even with LOTR's with some really geeky hard core fans (I remember seeing a couple of nerds walk out of the theatre during FOTR because the Liv Tyler character rescued Frodo from the black riders,when in the book, she did nothing warrior like)--so long as JJ and other TPTB's don't do a complete rework of the core story or its facets (like introduce "beaming transporter tech" to SW's or introduce little people with magic rings OR go heavy with the shipping) then it will be "all good"

So...what if they DID add those things? Then you would have the situation we have with NuTrek. The stuff they have added into Trek make it fantasy and not science fiction anymore.

 

[YJ02]

THIS notion is why those who are not Star Trek or high science fiction fans miss the point. Sorry, but actual science or at least a future interpretation of it IS important to science fiction. A "flux capacitor" is nonsense, unless you have explained what it does for whatever it is you are discussing. If you have a car, then the term "ignition system" actually means something. It involves the key switch, the car battery and a starter motor and an alternator. I am no car nut, but I understand that. I know that if the alternator goes out, even the fully charged car battery will not help me. So, if I refer to a "Wummox Flux Initiator (ignition system)", and I turn a Flipoz Shard (the key), and I have a fully charged Boron Cell (battery), and my Flux Space Drive does not initiate, that perhaps the "Flux Capacitor" (the alternator) is bad. See how that works? Star Trek does this ALL THE TIME. If you have no idea what an ignition system in a car is, my little analogy becomes nothing more than "technobabble".



Star Wars fans generally do not understand or care to understand high science. Some people actually WANT the explanations connected to technology they see in science fiction. Like in SG-1 and Star Trek and movies like Fantastic Voyage and Andromeda Strain. Don't show me a 4-cylinder car smoking a V-12 Ferrari in a race and then expect me to swallow it without explanation. That is what NuTrek wants me to do, and Star wars does not care if I accept it or not.



Star Trek started as a serial drama in space, in the vein of the westerns which were on at the time. It was not underil season 2 and 3 that social commentary and science came into the mix in the TV show. It was not until TNG that gene's vision took shape the way he envisioned it: focus on science and social commentary.



No, it never claimed to be scifi. But many of it's fans do. Many INSIST that it is science fiction.



That is true. But there are still a whole lot of us out here who do indeed care, and we are sticklers for precision. I do not just want "a sandwich". I want romaine lettuce, Roma tomatoes, smoked turkey and provolone cheese on toasted wheat.



So...what if they DID add those things? Then you would have the situation we have with NuTrek. The stuff they have added into Trek make it fantasy and not science fiction anymore.

I am pretty much saying all of that-yes. We know a flux capacitor is nonsense--I said that. What you do not seem to get, is that in a lot of space based fantasy entertainment, the "science" real or not, is A PROP, A BACKDROP,A TOOL, A "ITS NOT IMPORTANT,ITS JUST THERE, PAY ATTN TO THE STORY" TYPE OF THING.

Like I said-done with this silly, inane "argument"

 

[Overmind One]

I am pretty much saying all of that-yes. We know a flux capacitor is nonsense--I said that. What you do not seem to get, is that in a lot of space based fantasy entertainment, the "science" real or not, is A PROP, A BACKDROP,A TOOL, A "ITS NOT IMPORTANT,ITS JUST THERE, PAY ATTN TO THE STORY" TYPE OF THING.

Like I said-done with this silly, inane "argument"

ONLY in fantasy. If nonsense is attached to it, then it is not science fiction. That is why Star Trek is no longer science fiction.

 

[Gatefan1976]

ONLY in fantasy. If nonsense is attached to it, then it is not science fiction. That is why Star Trek is no longer science fiction.

Organians (TOS,ENT)
Trelane (TOS)
Q (TNG,DS9,VOY)
Douwd (TNG)
The Prophets (DS9)

Quite a few fantasy being's to choose from.............

 

[Overmind One]

Organians (TOS,ENT)
Trelane (TOS)
Q (TNG,DS9,VOY)
Douwd (TNG)
The Prophets (DS9)

Quite a few fantasy being's to choose from.............

No, Trelaine does not belong in there. His powers were tied to technology in TOS. And the Q are definitely fantasy as were the Dowd (one episode). The prophets were a little of both. Still, none of these are central characters of Star Trek and they are not tied to the core canon of the show. I hate the Q and you know that. Star Wars is 100% fantasy with zero science anywhere, not even in a single episode of any of the animated shows, the movies or the books (even in the EU). Star Trek cannot be classified as a fantasy franchise or a fantasy show. There was more science in the animated Star Trek cartoon than in the totality of anything Star Wars.

 

[Joelist]

State your case! Star Trek or Star Wars? Which one (or both) is fantasy? Who would win a drinking contest - Scotty or The Emperor?

 

[YJ02]

And, other sci-fi., like Trek or B5, etc, has the "burden" of our history and current events in it's past.

So, anything they present, scientific or historic must at least slightly conform to the facts of actual history

-ex" ST can no longer talk of the Eugenics Wars in 1997(?) because it of course, has not happened. The show conforms to actual history up to the date of each series'/movie's creation-so they need to retcon their fictional history

no "biggie" really, fans will understand the need

but it is forgotten that SW's-purposefully so (that is for to avoid the scrutiny of this point perhaps)-is set a long time ago in another galaxy. Therefore, it is "free" of our timeline and our history,science and social/cultural events

Note this is a post on its own and is not a retort to any ST fanboy and is,therefore, not an argument for any side (of which I have none since I am a fan of both) but just a 'statement' of entertainment fact

 

[Bluce Ree]

And, other sci-fi., like Trek or B5, etc, has the "burden" of our history and current events in it's past.

So, anything they present, scientific or historic must at least slightly conform to the facts of actual history

-ex" ST can no longer talk of the Eugenics Wars in 1997(?) because it of course, has not happened.

That's not true. ST is a universe unto itself with its own alternate history. None of the events posited in the original ST universe timeline have been altered to fit our current history.

 

[Overmind One]

That's not true. ST is a universe unto itself with its own alternate history. None of the events posited in the original ST universe timeline have been altered to fit our current history.

I think he means the actual mention of dates, and in that case, "Space Seed" mentioned the time period as being around the 1990s (specifically later defined as from 1992-1996, with casualties at 30 million). Coming up is the mentioned date of First Contact which is April 5, 2063.

 

[Gatefan1976]

No, Trelaine does not belong in there. His powers were tied to technology in TOS.

Like I said in the other thread, Trelaine is there to show the explained=Science, unexplained=Magic.
I know how he got his "powers"

And the Q are definitely fantasy as were the Dowd (one episode). The prophets were a little of both. Still, none of these are central characters of Star Trek and they are not tied to the core canon of the show.

Excuse me what?
The Prophets are very much a central -element- of DS9, and yeah, really are important. The Organians are as well to TOS.

I hate the Q and you know that.

Star Wars is 100% fantasy with zero science anywhere, not even in a single episode of any of the animated shows, the movies or the books (even in the EU).

Err, how would you know?

Star Trek cannot be classified as a fantasy franchise or a fantasy show.

Good thing I'm not trying to say it is then!

There was more science in the animated Star Trek cartoon than in the totality of anything Star Wars.

 

[Bluce Ree]

The Prophets are very much a central -element- of DS9,

Yeah, 'nuff said.

 

[Overmind One]

Like I said in the other thread, Trelaine is there to show the explained=Science, unexplained=Magic.
I know how he got his "powers"

Excuse me what?
The Prophets are very much a central -element- of DS9, and yeah, really are important. The Organians are as well to TOS.

View attachment 32357

Err, how would you know?

Good thing I'm not trying to say it is then!

View attachment 32358

First of all, DS9 is the least Star Trek of Star Trek shows and the show itself is not the central element of Star Trek. Second, the Organians appear in ONE episode of TOS, even though the Organian Peace Treaty was mentioned throughout TOS. By TNG, however, most of that treaty appeared to be abrogated (because of the Klingon/Federation alliance), and by the time of DS9 there was nothing left of it. The Khitomer Accords superceded it.

You do a lot of this!

Do you really believe you are going to convince anyone that Star Trek is another magical fairy tale like Star Wars is, and that they are basically the same thing? Really?

 

[YJ02]

I think he means the actual mention of dates, and in that case, "Space Seed" mentioned the time period as being around the 1990s (specifically later defined as from 1992-1996, with casualties at 30 million. Coming up is the mentioned date of First Contact which is April 5, 2063.

and there is those eps of DS9 where Sisko and others have gone back in time and participated in some kind of riot while living in refugee camp slums. Been a while, don't remember the details, but I think those dates have passed as well

 

[Joelist]

Here is the place to discuss what genre Star Trek is:

http://www.gatefans.net/gforums/thr...asy-broadway-musical-or-something-else.28166/

 

[Gatefan1976]

and there is those eps of DS9 where Sisko and others have gone back in time and participated in some kind of riot while living in refugee camp slums. Been a while, don't remember the details, but I think those dates have passed as well

The bell riots have not "happened" yet.

 

[Gatefan1976]

First of all, DS9 is the least Star Trek of Star Trek shows and the show itself is not the central element of Star Trek.

You do a lot of this:

Which is very rapidly followed up by a lot of this:

And then I assume get a look like this:

While everyone else is wondering if you are thinking this:

Just Sayin'

Second, the Organians appear in ONE episode of TOS, even though the Organian Peace Treaty was mentioned throughout TOS. By TNG, however, most of that treaty appeared to be abrogated (because of the Klingon/Federation alliance), and by the time of DS9 there was nothing left of it. The Khitomer Accords superceded it.

Well that's good, cause the Organians predicted it would happen..........

Do you really believe you are going to convince anyone that Star Trek is another magical fairy tale like Star Wars is, and that they are basically the same thing? Really?

I'm not trying to prove that, so......... no?

I leave you with this thought............

 

[Overmind One]

You do a lot of this:
View attachment 32365
Which is very rapidly followed up by a lot of this:
View attachment 32366
And then I assume get a look like this:
View attachment 32367
While everyone else is wondering if you are thinking this:
View attachment 32368

Just Sayin'


Well that's good, cause the Organians predicted it would happen..........


I'm not trying to prove that, so......... no?

I leave you with this thought............

View attachment 32369

Well, when something represented by this...

Makes you feel like this...

It's easier to turn it into this...

Instead of realizing that many others see it like this...

Now about that matchup... Okay, the Imperial Cruiser has no shields, and pulsed directed energy weapons and mechanical turrets. Without deploying it's fighters, the fight can only end one way. The Enterprise fires a spread of about 4 photon torpedoes and the Cruiser is space debris. . It could literally slice it in half with a continuous phaser beam across it's middle. It could beam the engines off of the ship and into space.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Well, when something represented by this...

View attachment 32370
Makes you feel like this...

View attachment 32371

It's easier to turn it into this...

View attachment 32372

Instead of realizing that many others see it like this...

View attachment 32373

ROFLMFAO!!!
Umm, I understand how the tech in ST works, so you keep working it dude, I am sure it will work on someone..............
Someone...........
.
.
.
.
.
Anybody???

My understanding of Trek:

Like Riker, I get it.

Your understanding of what I say:

Still running around with your dicks in your hands.

Now about that matchup... Okay, the Imperial Cruiser has no shields, and pulsed directed energy weapons and mechanical turrets. Without deploying it's fighters, the fight can only end one way. The Enterprise fires a spread of about 4 photon torpedoes and the Cruiser is space debris. . It could literally slice it in half with a continuous phaser beam across it's middle. It could beam the engines off of the ship and into space.

My work here is done.

 

[Joelist]

I thought we created a separate thread for the Star Trek talk?

 

[Overmind One]

I thought we created a separate thread for the Star Trek talk?

There is too much

I thought we created a separate thread for the Star Trek talk?

I think we need something more visceral....like Star Trek vs Star Wars.