Existence

shavedape

Well Known GateFan
When I say "historical evidence" about Ayn Rand I am referring to what she herself wrote and said. For example the Stanford encyclopedia records:

Conspicuous by their absence from Rand's list of virtues are the “virtues of benevolence”, such as kindness, charity, generosity, and forgiveness. Rand states that charity is not a major virtue or moral duty (1964b); likewise, presumably, kindness, generosity, and forgiveness. Whether, and how much, one should help others depends on their place in one's rationally defined hierarchy of values, and on the particular circumstances (whether they are worthy of help, what the likely consequences are of helping them, and so on). The greater their value vis-à-vis one's rational self-interest, the greater the help that one should be willing to give,ceteris paribus. What is never morally appropriate is making sacrifices, that is, surrendering something of value to oneself for the sake of something of less or no value to oneself. Thus, it can never be moral to knowingly risk one's life for a stranger (unless, of course, one's life is no longer worth living) or to court unhappiness for the happiness of another, whether stranger or friend.

This derives both from her book "Atlas Shrugged" (Galt's speech) and also "The Objectivist Ethics" and "The Virtue of Selfishness".

Wow! :icon_e_surprised: That was a pretty blatant misrepresentation of Rand's ethics as proven by the fact that it wasn't even a quote of hers. Low blow Joelist, low blow.

Look, I'm not going to thread drift with the rest of you here but I have to point out when one makes such an egregiously erroneous statement. Such nonsensical statements as "...or to court unhappiness for the happiness of another, whether stranger or friend" makes zero sense and has as much to do with Rand's ethics as Barney the dinosaur has to do with your personal religious beliefs, JL.

P.S. Seriously JL, WTF does that dumb ass statement about courting unhappiness for the happiness of another even mean????? It means nothing, that's what it means yet you post it as if it's deep and meaningful. It's not and you're better than that intellectually...I think.
 

shavedape

Well Known GateFan
What is it when you know you cannot define existence without using something based IN existence? On another forum a few years ago, there was a similar thread arguing reality. Is reality real? The thread covered other permutations of that, like "How big are we", which broke down into "is our universe a particle orbiting the nucleus of an atom in another universe" and such. It is fun to philosophize, but Ann's perspective seems rather bleak and wanting IMO. Very narcissistic and self-centered. The very nature of social animals like primates is the capacity to be family/group centered and NOT self-centered.

Rand was lacking in certain aspects of her philosophy the further down the line you go into it. For instance, she never had children and I think that showed in the dearth of philosophical commentary in regards to children and family.* It also was a glaring hole in her fictional characters lives; the vehicle through which she presented her philosophy in her novels. Everyone in her novels was conveniently sans children, hero or villain they didn't have kids. She makes a passing comment about a female character in Atlas Shrugged who has kids in Galt's Gulch but it amounts to nothing more than saying that this non-character's children were happy and healthy (due in no small part to being raised as Objectivists, go figure). The details of how this character successfully mothered her children were conveniently lacking though.

One has to wonder at the amounts of birth control the women in Rand's novels gobble up. I think it's put into the municipal water supply or something the way no one gets pregnant despite having copious amounts of sex (usually rough sex, Rand had a thing about that for some bizarre reason).

At any rate, the point here is do we exist and I posit that Rand's epistemology, her theory of knowledge, is correct in that we have to exist first in order to even ask the question of do we exist. People can say what they want about other aspects of her philosophy but for them to try and claim that she is wrong about existence preceding consciousness is just laughable (and sad if you think about it).

As for the originality of her philosophy in toto, well, she based a huge chunk of her philosophy on Aristotle's works ("A is A" for instance), although certainly not all of her philosophy, but at least she gives him credit. She was also heavily influenced by Freidrich Nietzcshe whom she doesn't give much credit to at all. She claimed to reject him but early drafts of The Fountainhead and notes from her journals prove that she was pretty much cribbing his concept of the superman. She toned it down in the final drafts of the manuscript but the evidence remained nonetheless and was published posthumously for all to see (she kept all her notes and journals and scribblings). Same with her novel We the Living, which originally was published with a draconian Nietzscheian bent replete with characters spouting some pretty horrific stuff if I recall correctly (I might be wrong, she might have edited it before publication the first time but I'm pretty sure it made it to at least one printing). She revised the novel and cut out those blatantly Nietzscheian elements at some later point.

So, yeah, she can definitely be criticized on certain aspects of her philosophy but as I stated earlier her tenet of the Primacy of Existence is unassailable. Existence exists and consciousness and identity proceeds from there. There literally can be no other way to run this equation. ;)


*The Simpsons episode in the first or second season with Maggie at the Ayn Rand day care center was pretty funny because it played on the unlikely combination of Rand and child care. They did a Maggie/Rand episode more recently where Maggie plays a Howard Roark type character (voiced by Jodie Foster) but it wasn't as funny as the first Rand episode. Not surprising as we all know that The Simpsons was much funnier in the early days.
 

Joelist

What ship is this?
Staff member
Wow! :icon_e_surprised: That was a pretty blatant misrepresentation of Rand's ethics as proven by the fact that it wasn't even a quote of hers. Low blow Joelist, low blow.

Look, I'm not going to thread drift with the rest of you here but I have to point out when one makes such an egregiously erroneous statement. Such nonsensical statements as "...or to court unhappiness for the happiness of another, whether stranger or friend" makes zero sense and has as much to do with Rand's ethics as Barney the dinosaur has to do with your personal religious beliefs, JL.

P.S. Seriously JL, WTF does that dumb ass statement about courting unhappiness for the happiness of another even mean????? It means nothing, that's what it means yet you post it as if it's deep and meaningful. It's not and you're better than that intellectually...I think.

Shaved, I wrote "derived" because it is on the Stanford University website and the sourcing is from one of the Rand books I listed. The site was clear that it is a Rand statement but the exact placement was unclear. Also I have encountered Rand-ites quoting it and using it - so I would not call it a low blow or misrepresentation. As to its meaning, that is actually pretty clear and fits perfectly in with her objectivist idea of humans all being in effect traders.
 

shavedape

Well Known GateFan
Shaved, I wrote "derived" because it is on the Stanford University website and the sourcing is from one of the Rand books I listed. The site was clear that it is a Rand statement but the exact placement was unclear. Also I have encountered Rand-ites quoting it and using it - so I would not call it a low blow or misrepresentation. As to its meaning, that is actually pretty clear and fits perfectly in with her objectivist idea of humans all being in effect traders.

Nope, it's not a Rand statement, if it was you, and the Stanford site, would have posted the exact quote (hopefully in context). The term "derived" is a cheap attempt to smear what she said in a negative fashion, if not the statement wouldn't have been "derived", it would have been an actual in-context quote.

A much better site for Rand's ethics is the following link which, I believe, contains the entire text of her book on ethics: The Virtue of Selfishness. You can't get more precise than that now can you? ;)

http://joelvelasco.net/teaching/tawp/Ayn_Rand-The_Virtue_of_Selfishness.pdf
 

Joelist

What ship is this?
Staff member
I actually wasted time this morning going to Randian sites, and they all document her opposition to altruism and self-sacrifice. Granted that the wording in many of them is (to put it lightly) obscure but they all still make the point. And these are not rand critic sites - we talking about the Ayn Rand Lexicon, the Atlas Society, The Ayn Rand institute and even a set of quotes from her Playboy Magazine interview.

However, this thread is about existence and critiquing Ayn Rand is probably off base - I let my dislike of her philosophies push me to pull the thread off topic. I am sorry about that. Rand does have a valid point in that you have to exist to even be able to ponder whether you exist.
 

shavedape

Well Known GateFan
I actually wasted time this morning going to Randian sites, and they all document her opposition to altruism and self-sacrifice. Granted that the wording in many of them is (to put it lightly) obscure but they all still make the point. And these are not rand critic sites - we talking about the Ayn Rand Lexicon, the Atlas Society, The Ayn Rand institute and even a set of quotes from her Playboy Magazine interview.

However, this thread is about existence and critiquing Ayn Rand is probably off base - I let my dislike of her philosophies push me to pull the thread off topic. I am sorry about that. Rand does have a valid point in that you have to exist to even be able to ponder whether you exist.

No worries. I was trying not to thread drift myself hard as it is to resist. I'm not trying to be an apologist or defender of Rand as I don't agree with everything of hers myself, but I wanted to point out where I thought the "derives" statement was being disingenuous. ;)

As for your comments on Rand's view of altruism and self-sacrifice, yes, she was opposed to them and lays out why in TVoS. If you want to slog thru reading the entire text you will find out why in those essays. You would probably find it an interesting read, one that would challenge your beliefs and get you thinking. Not saying you'll agree with her in the end but it never hurts to fully understand the enemy's stance.

I do like her epistemology though as it's one of the things she gets right. It's kind of shocking how many people try to argue that we don't exist and/or can't prove we exist while ignoring the fact that in order for them to posit such a stance they have to exist in the first place. Last I checked someone who didn't exist really didn't have that much to say about anything. :icon_lol:
 

Jim of WVa

Well Known GateFan
The Serious Point

No worries. I was trying not to thread drift myself hard as it is to resist. I'm not trying to be an apologist or defender of Rand as I don't agree with everything of hers myself, but I wanted to point out where I thought the "derives" statement was being disingenuous. ;)

As for your comments on Rand's view of altruism and self-sacrifice, yes, she was opposed to them and lays out why in TVoS. If you want to slog thru reading the entire text you will find out why in those essays. You would probably find it an interesting read, one that would challenge your beliefs and get you thinking. Not saying you'll agree with her in the end but it never hurts to fully understand the enemy's stance.

I do like her epistemology though as it's one of the things she gets right. It's kind of shocking how many people try to argue that we don't exist and/or can't prove we exist while ignoring the fact that in order for them to posit such a stance they have to exist in the first place. Last I checked someone who didn't exist really didn't have that much to say about anything. :icon_lol:

The important idea to take from ethical egotism is that no one has a right to compel me to act in a manner that is not in my best interest. Furthermore, I do not have a right to force anyone else to act in a manner that is not in their best interest. I can voluntarily do something that is not in my best interest, but it must be my decision to make.

Unfortunately, Rand's personal life was full of instances where she bullied her husband and her followers to act in ways that were not in their best interest. Rand's affair with her follower Branden was an example of this bullying. Actually this type of bullying would be a good topic for a movie on bullying.

One more picture of the pr0n star who played Sarah Palin:

nailin-palin.jpg
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
Not that I mind the pretty pics Jim, but what purpose do they serve?
Distain of Sarah Palin?
 

Joelist

What ship is this?
Staff member
Alas they really have no relation to the thread topic.
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
The picts are not of Sarah Palin. The picts were a natural result of my original comparison between Ayn Rand and Sarah Palin.
Perhaps yes, but you need to elucidate on your point.
Is Sarah Palin the equivalent of a "brainless porn star"?, and by default Ayn Rand is just as brainless?

I am more than capable of Extrapolation of a point, I won't gaurentee I will arrive at the same point as you have however, or even recognize the pont you are making.i
 
B

Backstep

Guest
I to fail to see the relevance of the pics. What does your concept of beauty have to do with existence?
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
Should we open this thread up to general discussion on existance, and what drives us as individuals to do what we do, or just let it die?
 
B

Backstep

Guest
I have the end all to say we exist. I poo there for i exist. The noxious exhaust and matter must come from some one after a night of beer and beans :D
 

Gatefan1976

Well Known GateFan
I have the end all to say we exist. I poo there for i exist. The noxious exhaust and matter must come from some one after a night of beer and beans :D


Ahhh
The old "if you don't eat you don't shit, and if you don't shit you die" ploy.............. :D
 

Joelist

What ship is this?
Staff member
I have the end all to say we exist. I poo there for i exist. The noxious exhaust and matter must come from some one after a night of beer and beans :D

But remember, beans are good for your heart...
 
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