Doctor S08E12 "Death in Heaven"

[EvilSpaceAlien]

The episode has already aired on BBC One and BBC iPlayer so here's a discussion thread.

Personally I'm disappointed. The pacing was way off and the ending just fizzled out. Michelle Gomez was fantastic as The Master and didn't go over the top to the same degree a John Simm IMO, but she was ultimately let down by bad writing.

 

[Joelist]

I liked it better.

The pacing seemed fine and overall the performances were good. I do agree the plot components were kind off naff though. Still compared to the RTD season enders it was much superior.

Overall this was a very good season of Who. Capaldi was just what was needed as the Doctor and the less clownish tone of the show a big help also.

 

[shavedape]

I disagree with ESA. I think this season with Capaldi was clever and interesting and ended on the perfect note. I concur that the "bad guy" was done very, very well and came off as more sinister (and funnier) because The Master was played by a woman with great acting chops. ("Don't be so selfish. I'll miss her too." )

I didn't mind the cybermen this time even though I usually find them tedious and as over done as the Daleks. Also, I think what made the season finale work was that Capaldi's "Doctor" wasn't anywhere near as emo as Matt Smith's would have been if he had done this season. The emotional scenes were anything but maudlin, which has been a problem with this show in the past. (The problem of horrible sound editing still exists though. It's almost impossible to hear the dialogue against the soundtrack at times.)

I think compared to the last few seasons of the show they did a pretty good job this time. They even got me to watch the entire season, something I haven't done in a few years. And with Capaldi at the helm I'm even looking forward to the Christmas special. :encouragement:


(*I'm not happy that they killed off a certain handsome character though. )

 

[shavedape]

I liked it better.

The pacing seemed fine and overall the performances were good. I do agree the plot components were kind off naff though. Still compared to the RTD season enders it was much superior.

Overall this was a very good season of Who. Capaldi was just what was needed as the Doctor and the less clownish tone of the show a big help also.

Yes, I agree completely about Capaldi. I really wasn't sure that he would do that well when he stepped into the role but he's turned out to be really good. I'd even dare to say that he's my favorite of the "new" Doctors.

 

[Joelist]

True enough. On the EMO note Smith actually wasn't too bad - the king of EMO by a long shot was David Tennant.

The main thing I would have wished for was answers to questions - usually Moffat does not leave plot elements unexplained but he sure did here:

a) How did the Master survive The End of Time (granted they should figure out a way to just erase that episode from canon completely but the question still stands)?

b) How and why the cross gender regeneration?

c) How did the Master get control of the technology to create Cybermen?

d) What was the Master's actual endgame here? I just don't buy that the whole thing was so he/she could have their friend back.

Then again, usually Moffat does explain everything do no doubt this will get revisited.

 

[shavedape]

I'm not convinced the Master was killed off this time and no doubt will be back at some point. That's kind of how things work on this show.

As for the change in gender, I think we've all been expecting that for awhile. Now they can have a woman play the Doctor at some point in the future.

As for the Master's endgame, don't discount the fact that he/she is nuts. The character was bonkers when last we saw him so that trait wouldn't just go away. And with regeneration we know that there is something of a personality change so even though the Master came back mentally ill, she might have had different motivations than the previous incarnation had.

As for the Cybermen technology I have no idea where that came from. I'm cynical enough to believe that the writers simply "plugged in" the Cybermen because they're Doctor Who writers and have a Daleks/Cybermen quota they must fill each season.

 

[Bluce Ree]

I don't like that they haphazardly reinvented the Cybermen by making them entire humans encased in a robotic exoskeleton. Cybermen were never entire humans in a shell and this is going all the way back to William Hartnell. Also, the Cyber-particle rain is another purely contrived contraption that has no basis in DW-lore.

I also dislike this spontaneous gender change nonsense. I can understand wanting to have multi-ethnic Doctors at some point, just to be politically correct, but spontaneous gender change is just stupid and clear pandering.

 

[Joelist]

Both of the changes to the Cybertech could also have been done by the Master.

And yes I also don't care for gender switching - it has no canonical precedent and is basically shock value. They should have just had her be the Rani instead. She could be just as looney and it would not have had the issues.

 

[Bluce Ree]

Both of the changes to the Cybertech could also have been done by the Master.

I thought of that as well but the Doctor seemed too familiar with the Cybermen particle tech, even explaining how each particle contains the blueprints to create a Cyberman.

 

[shavedape]

I don't like that they haphazardly reinvented the Cybermen by making them entire humans encased in a robotic exoskeleton. Cybermen were never entire humans in a shell and this is going all the way back to William Hartnell. Also, the Cyber-particle rain is another purely contrived contraption that has no basis in DW-lore.

I also dislike this spontaneous gender change nonsense. I can understand wanting to have multi-ethnic Doctors at some point, just to be politically correct, but spontaneous gender change is just stupid and clear pandering.

Yes, definite pandering but not surprising. I think they will have a gimmicky season or two with a female doctor at some point. We can only hope that they find an actress that is good in the role.

 

[EvilSpaceAlien]

The pacing seemed fine and overall the performances were good. I do agree the plot components were kind off naff though. Still compared to the RTD season enders it was much superior.

My main problem with the pacing was with the resolution, IMO it felt as if the episode hit a wall and all the momentum just stopped in the last 10-15 minutes. Then again I wasn't exactly sober at the time so my judgment may be impaired.

I disagree with ESA. I think this season with Capaldi was clever and interesting and ended on the perfect note. I concur that the "bad guy" was done very, very well and came off as more sinister (and funnier) because The Master was played by a woman with great acting chops. ("Don't be so selfish. I'll miss her too." )

I agree about the season as a whole, I think this has probably been one of the best and most consistent seasons of all of NuWho with no real clunkers in it, only a couple of mediocre disappointments like the Robin Hood and forest episodes. And Capaldi has of course been stellar throughout it all, he may even have become my favorite Doctor at this point.

b) How and why the cross gender regeneration?

I still don't get why that needs any further explanation? So The Master happened to turn into a woman when he regenerated, do we really need to know more than that? It's already been established by The Doctor himself that Time Lords can change gender when regenerating and it doesn't contradict any previous canon. Spending a bunch of time discussing the gender change just feels like a waste of time that could be spent on meaningful storytelling instead.

 

[shavedape]

Since we're discussing the season finale I think we should have an impromptu poll regarding Capaldi and what we think of his performance. It seems that everyone here really likes him in the role but I don't want to make such a broad general assumption.

As I said earlier I think he's done a terrific job in the role and is my favorite of the new Doctors. I wasn't sure what to expect initially but I was pleasantly surprised as the season went on. As an actor he's able to be realistically dramatic and he's also got some great comedy chops. He can be deadpan without being too obvious and he can deliver a zinger without going over the top. ("Why do you need three mirrors? Why can't you just use one mirror and turn your head?" )

For me Capaldi has made Doctor Who interesting and watchable again. I really dropped off during Matt Smith's tenure, not that I hated him or anything, but I never found him that interesting to be honest. With Capaldi there's a whole different feel though.

So what do you guys think? Where does Capaldi fit in your list of favorites, especially regarding the new Doctors?

 

[Joelist]

I'd rate the NuWho Doctors as follows:

1) Capaldi
2) Eccleston
3) The War Doctor (John Hurt)
3) Smith
4) Tennant

Classic Who I'm more a Baker person. Probably as so:

1) Tom Baker
2) Troughton
3) Pertwee
4) Hartnell
5) Colin Baker
6) Davison
7) McCoy

I don't really know where to put Paul McGann in this. The Doctor Who movie that is most of his airtime was dreck but the Karn webisode wasn't bad.

 

[Bluce Ree]

I think Tom Baker will always own Doctor Who.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Since we're discussing the season finale I think we should have an impromptu poll regarding Capaldi and what we think of his performance. It seems that everyone here really likes him in the role but I don't want to make such a broad general assumption.

I think you are pretty safe there Ape

As I said earlier I think he's done a terrific job in the role and is my favorite of the new Doctors. I wasn't sure what to expect initially but I was pleasantly surprised as the season went on. As an actor he's able to be realistically dramatic and he's also got some great comedy chops. He can be deadpan without being too obvious and he can deliver a zinger without going over the top. ("Why do you need three mirrors? Why can't you just use one mirror and turn your head?" )

I watched "the Muskateer's" just before Capaldi took over on screen, so I was already well used to him and his style from that. It did make it take awhile before I thought he had his "doctor moment", but I can't say it really mattered all that much insofar as accepting him.

For me Capaldi has made Doctor Who interesting and watchable again. I really dropped off during Matt Smith's tenure, not that I hated him or anything, but I never found him that interesting to be honest. With Capaldi there's a whole different feel though.

He is more reminiscent of the first three doctors, which was something Nuwho benefitted from. I won't go so far as to say it -needed- it, but it was nice.

So what do you guys think? Where does Capaldi fit in your list of favorites, especially regarding the new Doctors?

NuWho
Tennant
(yeah yeah, I'll cop stick for that but I don't care because Tennant got some of the best stories of Nuwho and my favorite companion in Donna Noble (because it shifted Nuwho away from the "love stories" that were part of Rose, Martha, Amy and Clara) and she was a great character all her own)
Capaldi
Eccelston
Hurt
Smith
Smith gets last because while there are some outstanding stories in his run, I never thought he ever really pulled off the "old man in a young body" schtik.

 

[shavedape]

I think you are pretty safe there Ape

I watched "the Muskateer's" just before Capaldi took over on screen, so I was already well used to him and his style from that. It did make it take awhile before I thought he had his "doctor moment", but I can't say it really mattered all that much insofar as accepting him.

He is more reminiscent of the first three doctors, which was something Nuwho benefitted from. I won't go so far as to say it -needed- it, but it was nice.


NuWho
Tennant
(yeah yeah, I'll cop stick for that but I don't care because Tennant got some of the best stories of Nuwho and my favorite companion in Donna Noble (because it shifted Nuwho away from the "love stories" that were part of Rose, Martha, Amy and Clara) and she was a great character all her own)
Capaldi
Eccelston
Hurt
Smith
Smith gets last because while there are some outstanding stories in his run, I never thought he ever really pulled off the "old man in a young body" schtik.

Tennant as #1?

Here comes the stick!

*Good observation about Donna Noble btw. Clearly there was an affection there between the characters but it wasn't as overtly "unrequited love story" as the other companions were. Plus Donna came across more independent and more in charge than the others.

 

[shavedape]

I'd rate the NuWho Doctors as follows:

1) Capaldi
2) Eccleston
3) The War Doctor (John Hurt)
3) Smith
4) Tennant

Classic Who I'm more a Baker person. Probably as so:

1) Tom Baker
2) Troughton
3) Pertwee
4) Hartnell
5) Colin Baker
6) Davison
7) McCoy

I don't really know where to put Paul McGann in this. The Doctor Who movie that is most of his airtime was dreck but the Karn webisode wasn't bad.

I forgot about John Hurt, but yes, he definitely deserves to be higher up the list. Personally I'd put him above Eccleston but that's just me. And yes, Tennant belongs at the bottom of the list.

 

[Gatefan1976]

Tennant as #1?

Here comes the stick!

Hang on hang on!!!
I DID preface that by saying I liked the -stories- the most, and I am unsure if any of the other actors could pull off his stories as well as he did. I also liked the fact that he was no nonsense if he was pushed to it, whereas with Smith you would get 2 pages of "I'm sorry, I'm so sorry" even if the person/villain clearly deserved getting splattered.
Tennant pulled off the angry doctor far better than Smith emotionally. Eccleston pulled off the physicality of being threatening far better, yet was not given much of a chance to do it.

*Good observation about Donna Noble btw. Clearly there was an affection there between the characters but it wasn't as overtly "unrequited love story" as the other companions were. Plus Donna came across more independent and more in charge than the others.

They were mates, not potential partners, and I for one loved it

 

[Joelist]

Huh?

Tennant was the "I'm so sorry" Doctor.

 

[Joelist]

Tennant started out okay but he got more and more EMO as his time progressed. Also he had the "timelord victorious" and "lonely god" crap going. His acting was good but the writing got progressively more maudlin as his time went on culminating in possibly the worst piece of televised science fiction in history (The End of Time).