Anything goes 1

[Rac80]

It seems like a good thing, but being ex-military, I think it will hurt things overall. I am not a homophobe...everybody here knows that. But I also am a realist, and I will say that the "type" of person who joins the military is usually a straight male with athletic qualities and a taste for fast/attractive women (enlistees usually are aged 18-22). Many of these males will not take to showering with openly gay males. Many will not bunk with them, and many will not associate with them. This may be socially unacceptable, but the military is not America. There is NO freedom, it is literally a socialist dictatorship and always has been a socialist dictatorship. One does not get to decide when to go to bed, when to get up, when to eat, not even when to go to the bathroom. EVERY aspect of one's life is a one-size-fits-all prospect. Men in the military shower in gang showers, walk through the halls of barracks naked or wearing nothing but boxers (after showering), and most soldiers socialize with their brother soldiers. I think that gays who are open will be much much less of a problem in the women's barracks than the men's barracks. The next thing that will happen is that there will be social "cliques" formed within the ranks, with gay officers/enlisted officers tending to select gay soldiers under their command, and for the straight officers/enlisted officers to pick straight males for their platoons and regiments. It will happen. I do not see how some of the survival training exercises will work with a gay soldier and a straight one. The cold weather sleeping bag is designed to hold TWO men in the same bag to share body warmth. Some of the comraderie shared between male soldiers which might seem intimate in regular society would be different in the military. It is nothing at all to have another soldier buddy to wash your back at the outdoor showering truck. It saves water and time, and there is nothing sexual about it. But how will the straight soldier feel about letting a gay guy wash his back whilst standing naked at an outdoor showering truck? What about sex in the barracks...it was never an issue before. If you were caught having sex with another guy, you were gay and then discharged. Now, there will need to be rules associated with sex between two gay male soldiers in the barracks. Its hard to explain how much of a change this is....

The whole dynamic is going to change on many levels. Many more gays will join. Many straight males will not join now. I cant speak so much of the female soldiers, since it is only recently that they could even be issued rifles or a combat zone as a soldier. I dunno, perhaps its time for this to happen. I think its great that equality has reached the military, but much is going to change. Women in the military were never real soldiers because they were not allowed to be. They were not allowed on battleships, they were not issued rifles or given combat training or made to march and complete the "O" (obstacle) course in boot camp. That WILL change.

I think its a good move on the surface, but the waves this is going to make will not go away soon.

yep
my friends curently active in the military have said about the same thing you did. the over all dynamic of the military will be affected.

 

[shavedape]

It seems like a good thing, but being ex-military, I think it will hurt things overall. I am not a homophobe...everybody here knows that. But I also am a realist, and I will say that the "type" of person who joins the military is usually a straight male with athletic qualities and a taste for fast/attractive women (enlistees usually are aged 18-22). Many of these males will not take to showering with openly gay males. Many will not bunk with them, and many will not associate with them. This may be socially unacceptable, but the military is not America. There is NO freedom, it is literally a socialist dictatorship and always has been a socialist dictatorship. One does not get to decide when to go to bed, when to get up, when to eat, not even when to go to the bathroom. EVERY aspect of one's life is a one-size-fits-all prospect. Men in the military shower in gang showers, walk through the halls of barracks naked or wearing nothing but boxers (after showering), and most soldiers socialize with their brother soldiers. I think that gays who are open will be much much less of a problem in the women's barracks than the men's barracks. The next thing that will happen is that there will be social "cliques" formed within the ranks, with gay officers/enlisted officers tending to select gay soldiers under their command, and for the straight officers/enlisted officers to pick straight males for their platoons and regiments. It will happen. I do not see how some of the survival training exercises will work with a gay soldier and a straight one. The cold weather sleeping bag is designed to hold TWO men in the same bag to share body warmth. Some of the comraderie shared between male soldiers which might seem intimate in regular society would be different in the military. It is nothing at all to have another soldier buddy to wash your back at the outdoor showering truck. It saves water and time, and there is nothing sexual about it. But how will the straight soldier feel about letting a gay guy wash his back whilst standing naked at an outdoor showering truck? What about sex in the barracks...it was never an issue before. If you were caught having sex with another guy, you were gay and then discharged. Now, there will need to be rules associated with sex between two gay male soldiers in the barracks. Its hard to explain how much of a change this is....

The whole dynamic is going to change on many levels. Many more gays will join. Many straight males will not join now. I cant speak so much of the female soldiers, since it is only recently that they could even be issued rifles or a combat zone as a soldier. I dunno, perhaps its time for this to happen. I think its great that equality has reached the military, but much is going to change. Women in the military were never real soldiers because they were not allowed to be. They were not allowed on battleships, they were not issued rifles or given combat training or made to march and complete the "O" (obstacle) course in boot camp. That WILL change.

I think its a good move on the surface, but the waves this is going to make will not go away soon.

If gays serving was good enough for the Spartan military then it's good enough for the American one.

Besides, won't take long before all our soldiers have abs of steel.

 

[shavedape]

yep
my freidns curently active in the military have said about the same thing you did. the over all dynamic of the military will be affected.

The dynamic of the military has already been affected to a great degree and it has little to do with homosexuals. There are myriad changes that have occurred over the preceding decades all contributing to what Machiavelli referred to as the "effeminacy" of the military. (And by "effeminate" he didn't mean womanly, he meant a lack of strength and certitude.) Case in point, the American military is now seen as a "peace keeping force" (I know our Euro contingent will argue this point).

At any rate, the American military has been changing for quite some time now. Good or bad, that's how it is.

 

[Overmind One]

If gays serving was good enough for the Spartan military then it's good enough for the American one.

Besides, won't take long before all our soldiers have abs of steel.

View attachment 5948

Many of the straight American soldiers (which was basically 95% before DADT) have bodies like that. Training does it. But the gay soldiers are going to go nuts over them, and many will not feel comfortable with that. There will be relationships formed (fraternization) which used to only happen between the female soldiers and the male soldiers. There are already rules against that as well as the unwritten decorum of not hooking up with female soldiers (unless you are marrying one). The solution was to have women's camps and men's camps separate. Now, there will be same-sex relationships in the men's and women's camps and everything will change drastically. Like I said, Im not against it, but it is naive to think that this is only a minor issue. Should be interesting to watch over the next five years.

 

[shavedape]

Many of the straight American soldiers (which was basically 95% before DADT) have bodies like that. Training does it. But the gay soldiers are going to go nuts over them, and many will not feel comfortable with that. There will be relationships formed (fraternization) which used to only happen between the female soldiers and the male soldiers. There are already rules against that as well as the unwritten decorum of not hooking up with female soldiers (unless you are marrying one). The solution was to have women's camps and men's camps separate. Now, there will be same-sex relationships in the men's and women's camps and everything will change drastically. Like I said, Im not against it, but it is naive to think that this is only a minor issue. Should be interesting to watch over the next five years.

Doesn't seem to be a problem in other country's military outfits. Israel is a good example of it working. I'm sure there have been problems, but when aren't there problems? Even having male/female separate camps doesn't absolve all the problems. And from what I understand the male/female camps aren't so separate anymore, at least not in the U.S. military. They often tend to be grouped together on the same base and/or have very easy access to each other. Not to mention all the on-base housing where there is easy access to women, which is a whole set of problems in itself. (The infidelity rate for heterosexuals in the U.S. military is very high from what I understand.)

Will there be problems with the open inclusion of homosexuals in the military now? Surely, but I don't think it will be in huge numbers. And we all know that some incidents will make the news and be blown out of proportion (pardon the pun). In the long run it will all be pretty benign though, at least that's what I believe. I'm not psychic, if I were I'd have a reality show on SyFy called "Mary the Psychic"...oh wait, they've already done that.

The world is changing. Gays are more accepted now (as they should be). The American military, since it's populated mostly by people who come from a civilian background, is changing to adapt to the expectations of the soldiers. Even I know the standards of conduct and the conditions the soldiers live in is nowhere near as austere as it was just a few short decades ago. Younger people comprise the majority of the military and they literally come from a different world with different expectations. They don't go for the rigid discipline that other generations enjoyed. I'm not saying that's right, I'm just saying that's how it is.

(And yes, there are still areas of the military that are extremely disciplined, the Green Berets for example. No reduction in standards there.)

 

[Overmind One]

Doesn't seem to be a problem in other country's military outfits. Israel is a good example of it working. I'm sure there have been problems, but when aren't there problems? Even having male/female separate camps doesn't absolve all the problems. And from what I understand the male/female camps aren't so separate anymore, at least not in the U.S. military. They often tend to be grouped together on the same base and/or have very easy access to each other. Not to mention all the on-base housing where there is easy access to women, which is a whole set of problems in itself. (The infidelity rate for heterosexuals in the U.S. military is very high from what I understand.)

Actually, no. They dont have easy access to each other, and are in fact patrolled by armed guards during "firewatch". The UCMJ strictly prohibits it and violating the UCMJ is a courts martial offense. The on-base housing is only for married couples, not singles. But you are correct about the infidelity rate for heteros in the military. And Israel, whilst highly trained and with an advanced military, is not a superpower fighting wars in far flung military theatres in different parts of the world, and its military is a fraction of what the US war machine has. It has few bases and none outside of Israel.

Will there be problems with the open inclusion of homosexuals in the military now? Surely, but I don't think it will be in huge numbers. And we all know that some incidents will make the news and be blown out of proportion (pardon the pun). In the long run it will all be pretty benign though, at least that's what I believe. I'm not psychic, if I were I'd have a reality show on SyFy called "Mary the Psychic"...oh wait, they've already done that.

Yep, it will smooth out. But in the interim, the change will cause problems initially. I think the biggest issues will come from "lifers" who have made the military their careers. There is a LOT of joking and teasing which has anti-gay shades to it. In boot camp, when the Drill Instructor makes a joke about calling the men "ladies" and/or other very off-color comments which are jokes to straight soldiers but could be considered insults by gay soldiers will have to stop.

The world is changing. Gays are more accepted now (as they should be). The American military, since it's populated mostly by people who come from a civilian background, is changing to adapt to the expectations of the soldiers. Even I know the standards of conduct and the conditions the soldiers live in is nowhere near as austere as it was just a few short decades ago. Younger people comprise the majority of the military and they literally come from a different world with different expectations. They don't go for the rigid discipline that other generations enjoyed. I'm not saying that's right, I'm just saying that's how it is.

The military is unlike anything any free-world citizen can hope to understand. Life is a COMPLETELY different thing in there. You are literally brainwashed in boot camp and stripped of all individuality and none of who you were in the "real world" applies. Those young men and women who dont conform to the "rigid discipline" are washed out of boot camp and only those who make the grade pass. If there is a breakdown of the discpline aspect of the military, it will become useless as will the concept of "chain of command". Following orders in the military is not optional. Follow them or go to Leavenworth. :icon_e_sad:

(And yes, there are still areas of the military that are extremely disciplined, the Green Berets for example. No reduction in standards there.)

I think the branch of service makes a difference too. The VAST majority of homosexual "volations" which are prosecuted under the UCMJ, and the highest levels of homosexual activity is by far the US Navy. Next comes the Air Force, then the Army and last the Marines. Gays in the Navy have been allowed to remain in service even after caught/outed (before DADT). The Air Force turns the other cheek, because the Air Force has the highest level of educated soldiers and is the hardest to join. The Army and the Marines are the bastions of the horny straight males and females and those two branches are going to have the hardest time with this.

 

[Rac80]

Honestly i predict that wihin the next five years all of the hoopla will have settled down and there will be the same number of homosexuals in the military as there were before...they will just be able to be open about it. {No longer will a woman (a UNC grad) be able to get out of her obligation to the military after they paid for her schooling through ROTC by claiming she is a lesbian. That can only be a good thing and save the tax payer loads of money. }

as to the spartans....sparta had a very different society than we do in the USA- so it's like comparing apples and cantalopes.

 

[shavedape]

Honestly i predict that wihin the next five years all of the hoopla will have settled down and there will be the same number of homosexuals in the military as there were before...they will just be able to be open about it. {No longer will a woman (a UNC grad) be able to get out of her obligation to the military after they paid for her schooling through ROTC by claiming she is a lesbian. That can only be a good thing and save the tax payer loads of money. }

as to the spartans....sparta had a very different society than we do in the USA- so it's like comparing apples and cantalopes.

Buggery is buggery be it Spartan or USMC. ("Gomer Pile USMC" was a well known sodomite. )

As for people using their sexuality to skate out of their contracted obligations I don't know if that really happens (happened) all that much. I've never heard of it before. Usually I've heard about loyal, dedicated and decorated soldiers being booted because their sexuality came to light. The hetero thing I did hear about is how women will join up and then when called to duty in the Mideast they will either get pregnant and/or claim a family hardship which then gets them to stay stateside while still milking military benefits. There's always a scam a certain percentage of people will try to pull in such situations. It's just par for the course.

 

[Rac80]

Buggery is buggery be it Spartan or USMC. ("Gomer Pile USMC" was a well known sodomite. )

As for people using their sexuality to skate out of their contracted obligations I don't know if that really happens (happened) all that much. I've never heard of it before. Usually I've heard about loyal, dedicated and decorated soldiers being booted because their sexuality came to light. The hetero thing I did hear about is how women will join up and then when called to duty in the Mideast they will either get pregnant and/or claim a family hardship which then gets them to stay stateside while still milking military benefits. There's always a scam a certain percentage of people will try to pull in such situations. It's just par for the course.

In some societies (such as sparta) buggery was more acceptable and accepted than in ours. and yep...a gal did that even after she was told by her CO that he didn't want to know but she kept telling anyone and everyone so under DADT she was releived of her military obligations, then they sent her the bill for her education....she ended up doing time in leavenworth when the truth came out...she was not a lesbian- had a boyfriend at the time she claimed she was lesbian...had never been in a lesbian relationship...just didn't want to pay for her own education. she was convicted of fraud. yep there are always those who try to "game the system".

 

[shavedape]

In some societies (such as sparta) buggery was more acceptable and accepted than in ours. and yep...a gal did that even after she was told by her CO that he didn't want to know but she kept telling anyone and everyone so under DADT she was releived of her military obligations, then they sent her the bill for her education....she ended up doing time in leavenworth when the truth came out...she was not a lesbian- had a boyfriend at the time she claimed she was lesbian...had never been in a lesbian relationship...just didn't want to pay for her own education.

she was convicted of fraud. yep there are always those who try to "game the system".

So...she wasn't a lesbian and she wasn't able to get out of her obligation by using the gay card. Seems to be something of a moot point, n'est pas?

Sure, there will probably be some cases where gay soldiers try to push the political correctness/"I'm a victim" button, but hopefully it won't get out of hand. The point OM1 made about sergeants having to curtail their verbiage in boot camp is, I think, inevitable. Personally I don't see anything wrong with them using such language and if a soldier's feelings are so easily hurt he/she shouldn't be in the military. It's not high school band camp after all. Besides, there's nothing funnier than calling a group of grown men "ladies".

 

[Graybrew1]

My big brother is still a Marine, he is very disciplined. Extremely. My nephew just left for boot camp this month, I will have to ask him next time I see him if he thinks it was disciplined. My bet is, he will say.....Heck Yeah!

 

[shavedape]

My big brother is still a Marine, he is very disciplined. Extremely. My nephew just left for boot camp this month, I will have to ask him next time I see him if he thinks it was disciplined. My bet is, he will say.....Heck Yeah!

Be sure to ask him about all the buggery too.

 

[Graybrew1]

Be sure to ask him about all the buggery too.

OMG, NEVER.
He is my nephew. He would have a heart attack.

 

[shavedape]

OMG, NEVER.
He is my nephew. He would have a heart attack.

Tell him that, as a mod for an uber cool scifi site, it's your duty to ask about such things, current events and all that, blah blah blah.

 

[Graybrew1]

Tell him that, as a mod for an uber cool scifi site, it's your duty to ask about such things, current events and all that, blah blah blah.

The poor boy would turn beet red. I think boot camp was hard enough on him.

 

[shavedape]

I can simply think of no comeback to that.
I feel beaten and abused.
Congrats mon ami.

My intent is never to beat and abuse you, that's what I pay others to do so I can sit back and enjoy the show.

 

[Stonelesscutter]

My intent is never to beat and abuse you, that's what I pay others to do so I can sit back and enjoy the show.

Regardless my feeling shall be the same.
But let's stop derailing this thread. I'm afraid you're gonna scare off poor O Wildish with your extravagant behaviour.

 

[Graybrew1]

I bet that task will then fall to Omni since he is obviously the most fabulous mod.

I guess the rest of us are just chopped liver.

 

[Bluce Ree]

I guess the rest of us are just chopped liver.

Liver is amazingly good for you and, oh, so tasty when made with fried onions and paprika.

 

[Stonelesscutter]

I guess the rest of us are just chopped liver.

You're fabulous too. It was just a failed attempt on my behalf to make fun of Omni.

Liver is amazingly good for you and, oh, so tasty when made with fried onions and paprika.

Bluce I frequently laugh my ass off at your remarks. I may have to invest in a batch of stembolts to fasten and secure it.